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Robert Berkeley 0:02
Hello and welcome to Inside Jobs jobs where we get to meet creative leaders who work directly for brands learn about how they got to where they did and understand what drives them. Inside Jobs jobs is brought to you by IHAF I have the leading professional association for In House Agencies in house agencies and express KCS content production partner to discerning brands and agencies who want digital video and print marketing assets produce quickly and without fast. My name is Robert Berkeley Barclay, and in this episode, we meet Justin Bairamian Berryman, who last year spoke at the Henry Stewart creative operations conference in London. By the way, this year's is only around the corner. And as an exclusive offer to Inside Jobs inside jobs listeners, you can get 100 pound discount on a ticket using the code Express 100. That's the number 100. When booking online, if your role includes managing or setting up a creative operation, and you can get to London this year on March the fifth, then there's no better place to share your own story, hear from other people and get to know the players in this expanding business in Europe. I'll be there to giving a short talk on some of the lessons I've learned doing this Inside Jobs inside jobs podcast for the past year. Anyway, back to Justin who works at a very special and very highly regarded national institution. It's no secret that traditional broadcasters face a lot of disruption in the face of changing demographics, as well as new streaming services. And the British Broadcasting Corporation is not immune. Despite their very different funding model, they face the same challenges of remaining relevant to a market that was once virtually captive. And I was keen to know about how their In House Agency in house agency was set up. To overcome all this. I was extremely privileged to have been invited to record this within the hallowed halls of the BBC itself and was ushered into a small studio where I started by asking Justin, what his role was.

Justin Bairamian 1:56
Yeah, so I'm director of BBC creative. So I run BBC creative, which is effectively a BBC In House Agency in house agency. So we now produce all the BBC marketing, activity campaigns, branding, across all its different brands, which those of you in America are probably most aware of some of the dramas we do, maybe the news brand. But here in the UK, we have sports and we have six national radio stations, and we have 42 local radio stations. And we have four TV channels, and I player and etc, etc. So it's a big operation. We're about 150 people, okay, based here in London and up in Manchester that's on the payroll that's on the payroll. And then we're Yes, we absolutely we expand with freelancers as the work demands. Okay. All right.

Robert Berkeley 2:46
Okay. All right. And using external agencies too.

Justin Bairamian 2:48
So so we partner with specialist agencies, we don't use external ad agent says anymore, we fulfil that role in house now. But we definitely partner with specialist agencies, particularly in the world of design. So we've just done, we just rebranded one of our TV channels, BBC Two, and we work with super union, which is WPS design agency, where we operated almost as creative directors, and they did a lot of heavy lifting creatively. And that worked brilliantly because we can bring a real understanding of the BBC, but I think partnering with the external world and keeping the model porous, is the word we use is really important. A to bring that expertise in when we need those, but also to keep us fresh. Yeah, you know, I'm sure gowans took some of the risks of In House in house Asians. Yeah. And I think freshness is one of them.

Robert Berkeley 3:34
Yeah, it's interesting. I will come back to that. So that's where you are right now. And you built this In House Agency in house agency yourself?

Justin Bairamian 3:40
Yes. So I was given the task. Now, about five years ago, the we outsourced all of our creativity to external ad agencies, but primarily to a company called Red beam media. that was spun was that was spun, which was spun out 10 years ago with an exclusive contract. So the pendulum came back. And I think, though there are problems in an exclusive deal like that. And we weren't seeing the level of innovation and change that we needed. So so I was given the task of what do we do at the end of this contract? So the thing that triggered the review really was the end of contract. Yeah, I agree. It'll be much harder without that.

Robert Berkeley 4:17
Well, we'll come back to why you got that role and what qualified you but let's let's go right back to the beginning then so unusually for Inside Jobs inside jobs, guests, you are an Englishman, not an American. Obviously, you were born I guess in the UK. I have no English blood.

Justin Bairamian 4:34
Already. Armenian blood Scottish blood, but yes, born and bred in England. Fantastic. Okay, so

Robert Berkeley 4:39
Fantastic. Okay, so what do you remember about your first sort of exposure or identifying advertising or marketing as a medium? Do you have any sort of early memories of impactful?

Justin Bairamian 4:48
Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the I think what's now seen as the golden age of UK advertising with quite you know, CDP probably the prime creative force in the country. doing amazing adds for Benson and hedges. And then about mid Vickers came along and did amazing stuff for Heineken and Saatchi and Saatchi, I guess in their early years doing amazing stuff for British Airways,

Robert Berkeley 5:11
and were you aware of that there was an industry there? Or do you just absorb it like any other,

Justin Bairamian 5:15
I think just absorb it like any other consumer, but but I think it was a period where what was between the programmes was often better than the programmes themselves. And I think you're very, you were very aware of it being part of culture, you know, in the early days of BBH, and Levi's, and all the rest of it. So I was, I guess, coming into thinking about my career in that period, and was always interested in being a well, not a creative myself being surrounded by creative people. And being part of a creative industry, the I went to searches, first job. So they were fairly by then they were on the milk round, as it was called. So They were established now. So they were established enough to have a team going up to university, Mrs. Thatcher into power. And exactly. And no, they were a big agency by the time I joined. So I started as a graduate managing clients, managing the relationship, and then making sure that the agency delivered against the client brief. And how did you learn the ropes then?, So so they had a reasonably good training scheme there ? They're not quite as thorough as probably some of the more established agencies, but I think you it was one of those industries where you learnt on the job more than anything, but you will, you will. So you were between the creatives and the client? Yeah, throughout all of that, in that campaign, as well, particularly, and in those days, you know, come and talk about the model here. But in those days, account management played that roles and creatives were sort of behind the scenes other than the very senior ones the successful idea I guess, around the time.,

Robert Berkeley 6:40
I guess, around Yes,

Justin Bairamian 6:41
Yes yes, absolutely. And and, you know, the connection with business to its its creativity, not for its own sake, is creativity for a business end. Yeah. And I think understanding the relationship between those two things is part of what you had to do. And if we could predict what was successful, I think copywriter

Robert Berkeley 6:56
want to be a novelist isn't so you will exactly yeah.

Justin Bairamian 6:59
Yeah And I think you need to allow for that. And I guess that's the culture we're trying to create here where you absolutely prize creativity. But you give creatives enough of a sense of the business problem. They're trying to solve that they target that creativity in the right way. So it's an art but not for art's sake. It's it's an art but for real business. And that's the interesting combination that's always inspired, I guess, looking back on my career and thinking, Okay, where can I take it next? And what did I enjoy doing, and I loved working with the BBC. I think it was suddenly sort of as well as something that was at the centre of culture, it felt like something that mattered. It had a bit more purpose to it than promoting a lot of the things I had to promote. And I guess those are the brands that I really enjoyed working with. So I had a few people obviously, I from having worked with them who I knew here and they were actually opening up the opportunity of setting up planning as discipline here. And although I wasn't a planner, I was always at the more strategic. So planning for BB C's marketing. No, it was actually planning for BBC programme making. So it was trying to help programme makers and commissioners controllers understand what to commission and why in the end, it's about finding people you can experiment with,

Robert Berkeley 8:11
find these cheerleaders, basically make them into cheerleader

Justin Bairamian 8:14
and then have some success. And then we're interest gets about I have this. So you have to do it, you don't sell the mandate. Now you can't sell the theory of these things. And probably no one really understands what planning does even now. But

Robert Berkeley 8:28
you had to get yourself and this is a commonly used phrase, but you have to get yourself a seat at the table with these people who by and large didn't want you there would that be fair?

Justin Bairamian 8:37
But I enjoy this BBC creative is the third team I've set up at the BBC now and and I enjoy the process of establishing something new and proving its worth and finding ways of winning around the sceptics just by the quality of what you do.

Robert Berkeley 8:52
Yes, let's come up to the next step, which was the creation of the In House Agency in house agency. Yeah. How did how did it come about that they felt they needed one you'd outsourced? Read be? It spun out read be 10 years previously, or something?

Justin Bairamian 9:04
Yeah. So 10 years previously, we worked with a range of different ad agencies. Over that time, Rainey Keller's which then became y&r, which is now VML. y&r was one of them. We work with karma, karma. We work with a range of different agencies,

Robert Berkeley 9:17
but you're drawing talent, creative talent from those people. And that's strategic and creative.

Justin Bairamian 9:22
So we were working with agencies, like any client works with agencies,

Robert Berkeley 9:25
you'd send out a brief and people would pitch and you'd pick

Justin Bairamian 9:27
one. Yeah, I mean, we had retained agencies, and then we worked with some agencies on a project basis, but everything was outsourced, I guess, is the key point.

Robert Berkeley 9:35
That was the mandate, wasn't it for the BBC at the time? Yes.

Justin Bairamian 9:38
Yes. I mean, that there was definitely a wave of outsourcing being a good thing because you were ridding yourself of cost and the risk and all that sort of stuff. It seems some babies did go out with the bathwater they didn't know. Well, I think that's what I recognised quite quickly as you spoke, particularly to programme makers and commissioners who felt that they were completely embedded in their understanding of the BBC their understanding of their programmes. They've been programme makers have been working on these programmes sometimes for five years, and then suddenly got a bunch of people from an external agency taking six weeks out saying, This is how you're going to market your show. And they were saying, Well, why am I meeting these people for the first time? What do they understand about me my programme or indeed the BBC. And I think in the early days, because obviously a lot of people worked at the BBC, and then became part of rugby, it didn't matter as much. But over time, I think particularly read B's agenda and the BBC, the diversity just just come further apart. And they were there to make money. You know, and you look at, you know, the easiest thing for us was to look at the example of Channel Four, and for creative had been setting the creative bar for some time, and really benefited from being embedded. You know, they built relationships they built trust, they proved that they could do great creators.

Robert Berkeley 10:50
creators. That was as interesting. So that was sort of the inspiration for going that way.

Justin Bairamian 10:55
Well I think, Yes. And the person I had to persuade on called and bulford, who's the Deputy Director, General hair, and she'd been at Channel Four and had seen the power of four, she was already halfway, so she was halfway there. But we still needed to build business case, we still needed to persuade a lot of people. didn't

Robert Berkeley 11:09
Didn't seem radical, because you say Jennifer had it. But when I when was this, what period was this? This is four years ago?

Justin Bairamian 11:16
Well, I think in the broadcast world, In House in house creativity has been building for some time. So you know, in the period, we're looking at Sky creative has always been a very bright force. I mean, they use external agencies as well. It's always a very large agency at the time where we were doing our ITV creative, we're building their strength, again, they'd been on the similar journey of having a relatively small In House Agency in house agency and using external agencies, but I think you sound

Robert Berkeley 11:42
you sound like late comers then in that case., it works

Justin Bairamian 11:44
We works in that context. We were late comers. But I think increasingly, broadcasters thinking this is such an important part of our voice, that you need people that really understand the brands and understand the content.

Robert Berkeley 11:56
And you've been here at that point, what, six, seven years or something? I'd been here for, yeah,. evenEven a bit longer than that. So you you clearly knew the brand. You had the agency experience.

Justin Bairamian 12:06
Yeah, the benefit of both BBC and agency experience. So there was some big risks. And the biggest risk was we were we have a contractual thing called toupie. I'm sure in America have a similar thing.

Robert Berkeley 12:18
They don't know. Right? Okay. No, more hard and fast. They're right. Toupie up is the European wide law that that ensures that if you're made redundant because the work from your employer has moved elsewhere, you have you have a shot at actually being moved across as well and retaining your job and all your benefits that you've accrued over the years. Exactly. Yes, that doesn't exist.

Justin Bairamian 12:38
exist. So we have a bunch of people from Red Bay, who are tupid across, we combine them with a couple of teams of pictures team and a radio team from inside the BBC. So it felt a bit like an orphanage on day one of a bunch of people sort of tapping up and it all happened to them in a way. So you felt confident you could immediately give direction, I knew what the risks were. The risks were that it'd be seen as read be inside. Although you won't read be, although I wasn't the words, there was some people but I think the bulk of the creative talent was read be. So what I needed to do is signal very early on that this was going to be different. There's had a new creative ambition. And I did that by hiring some ecds from Adam and Eve, which was the top agency and

Robert Berkeley 13:22
well, there was quite a lot of industry chatter about that. Yeah. Because Because no one expected you to be able to attract such talent to an In House Agency in house agency. Yeah.

Justin Bairamian 13:32
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so that was probably my biggest job. There was lots of logistical stuff in terms of where we were going to sit and how we're going to get people to put across and welcome welcomed into the BBC, it was a huge amount of heavy lifting to get all that sorted. But actually, in terms of, I guess, the first step on the, towards the vision we had, which was to, you know, create a world class In House Agency in house agency, I had to get the right creative leaders in place.

Robert Berkeley 13:58
So getting the creative leaders in and attracting them. I mean, they the one thing you hear a lot about in this in this game is how do you attract the talent when all they're doing is working on the same on the same brand all the time, and people like to be able to chop and change and move around which they have the luxury of doing in agencies. So

Justin Bairamian 14:15
you know, think the classic classic ad agency model has been under under threat or certainly being challenged by clients, the explosion of data, and

Robert Berkeley 14:25
why would the explosion of data challenge? Did you think the large agencies or the traditional agencies would have the resources to crunch through that? they

Justin Bairamian 14:31
They have the resources? I think some agencies and I think there's a now a bit of a resurgence, I think of the power of the idea. But there was a period when I think people thought, Well, I can now talk to my consumers one to one. I don't need classic agencies in the same way. It gives me a better return on investment. And it's more measurable, to the

Robert Berkeley 14:52
to the agency's not saying Well, of course that's impossible. You'll destroy your brand in a heartbeat and all the work. Well, I think Investing there's vesting, I think that

Justin Bairamian 14:58
I think that debates rolling on his net and I think I think it's quite interesting. Now, obviously, since then a lot of tech companies, the veracity of their data is being challenged, etc, etc. But I think definitely, there's been a, I was reading an article by john Haggerty recently, who is basically understandably a proponent of creativity, yes, against technologists ruling the roost. But I think there's a period when I think it was tougher agencies and I think In House in house creativity has benefited from that actually, to go and work at the heart of a business and to express yourself creatively. And I think the thing that we had, which helped hugely, we have the BBC above the door, and I think for Aiden, on the ROI was, I can go and work for an organisation, a creative organisation that still matters, the work I do can be seen by millions as, as important culture. And actually, it's not one brand, you know, I can be working on radio one one week, and I can be working on BBC Sport the next it can be you know, the World Cup, or it can be iPad. So so there's massive variety, there is an advantage in in being that brand in the first place to bring that talent. Because the you know, there are far less sexy and interesting brands around that really do struggle with this, they need as much as anyone else to to be noticed and to have creative ideas that stop people in the street. And yet they struggle to get that creative talent, although I think that's having less than there was Yeah, so we bought some more creatives in and now, Aiden actually went to work for another company about three or four months ago. And we're now I'm interviewing for his replacement. And what's lovely now is that people are saying, I'm here because of the quality of the work. Yeah, yes. It's the BBC. And you're obviously doing some interesting stuff. But it looks like you can give me the opportunity of doing some of the best work. So the people stepping

Robert Berkeley 16:47
So the people stepping forward for this role a high calibre people that anyone would want to recruit. Yeah. So take us then to the present day, you've built the agency and remind me how big is it again? How many people?

Justin Bairamian 16:57
How many about 150? Lot of People.? So you know, plus at any one point, probably 20, odd freelancers. So it's a pretty big, big operation.

Robert Berkeley 17:06
And how is that structured, then? Because I guess they will roll up to you. So how have you How have you

Justin Bairamian 17:12
got so so they're the creatives are clustered around, so they clustered in both their craft area. And so Debbie, who you met earlier, is in the audio team. So we have an audio craft, we've got a pictures team who do a lot of the still images that we create, we have a digital team, we have a design team, we have a writing team, which I guess is what you'd more classically see from the ad agency world. And then we have quite a big team of promo directors, who are the people who do the whenever they're on the staff, they're on the staff, and we cluster them around particular brands. So we have mainstream brands, that includes BBC One, radio two, etc. We've got youth brands, and then some clustered around genres. So the ones up in Salford are clustered around kids and sport. We have a news cluster based here who do both domestic news and international. so

Robert Berkeley 18:01
So when you say a cluster, does that comprise individuals across these skill sets,

Justin Bairamian 18:06
so no. So the sort of the permanent cluster, as it were, are a creative head who basically runs the team and interacts with our marketing colleagues. And then a number of depending on the cluster, you know, promo directors, sometimes digital creatives, depending on the nature of the work. And then on the big campaigns, they would draw in talent from those different crafts.

Robert Berkeley 18:30
So it's a it's a movable pool of people. But it starts with this creative head. Yeah. And you said something quite interesting that you said they engage with their clients. Yeah. So that's not an account management role. And you're an account manager by trade. Yeah. So So you've done enough to know that this is not something that the BBC needs.

Justin Bairamian 18:48
So we we brought in two disciplines that I think are really important to what we do, and one is project management. So we have project managers who manage the big complex campaigns. So

Robert Berkeley 18:59
So they work within this structure underneath the creative head,

Justin Bairamian 19:02
they work sort of alongside the creative head bringing the right resource together for each project. They obviously do quite a lot of interaction with marketing as those obviously the creative head as you said, yeah. And then the other key disciplinary board, Jen is planning. Oh, okay, which I think is one of the most important things we've done, because I think the risk ofIn House Agencies in house agencies is that you become particularly an organisation like the BBC, you become very organizationally focused, and you lose touch with culture and you lose touch with the audience. And I think the plan is, in other words, the planners are here to keep us honest. And how do you ensure the planners keep

Robert Berkeley 19:39
And how do you ensure the planners keep looking outwards?

Justin Bairamian 19:40
Well, that that's what we have to work on. I think planners more naturally do. I think it's their job. It's their skill. So they look at the world what goes on and yeah, and that's their job. Think about Yeah, but then having someone whose job sole is to ensure as we're developing the work, we keep our eye on the audience and we keep our eye on what other people are doing and the competitive set Send etc. And clearly, that's the marketers job as well. But the marketers are sitting alongside the channel controllers and the editorial people, and their voices are very strong, because their credit people. Aabsolutely. So what we have to do is is to we use the phrase quite early on, which I think is sort of has been a good, a good sort of mantra to live by, which is agitating on behalf of the audience, we have to be a catalyst for change, I think in the organisation. Our job is to, obviously to bring creativity to but to bring creativity that's, that's rooted in an understanding of the audience.

Robert Berkeley 20:35
secret sauce, I mean, every every marketer wants to know what their audience are, what their, their consumers think, not just about them, but about their competitors and the world in general, and what's hot and what's not, and so on. It's sort of, it seems so out of reach for many marketers, I mean,In House Agencies in house agencies are not it.

Justin Bairamian 20:55
I think it's tough. And I think,

Robert Berkeley 20:57
Well, I think work from home,

Justin Bairamian 20:59
I don't know, I, I think you've got to find a way of saying our job. And you know, I've got a new boss whose title is chief customer officer. And that's very deliberate from Tony hall to call her that and because she has to be the voice of the audience right at the top table. And I think big organisations creative or otherwise, you get lost in the politics of the day to day and just navigating that. And I think you quite quickly lose sight of your audience. It's however much research you've got, yeah, I think the more bumps in the road you have through the process. So remember, the audience remember the audience, and I think were the final bump in the road. And I think it's partly to keep ourselves fresh, too. I think there is a risk of In House in house creativity that you become stale.

Robert Berkeley 21:44
And can you so how would you tackle that then?

Justin Bairamian 21:47
then? So I think we I mean, we do a number of very obvious things, you know, we make sure we work with different people that we bring freelancers in as part of our model. And we remain porous, as I said, right at the beginning. But you also need to get external speakers in you need to make sure you get out and about that you get a sense of what the how the audience is reacting to what you do a real focus on effectiveness. And again, the social

Robert Berkeley 22:11
Social media plays a big part in that. Well, social media dies, we

Justin Bairamian 22:13
Well, social media does, We do a lot of measurements, obviously, as a public service organisation, we would do we measure everything that moves. Yeah. And it's a question of using that in a useful way that can really help the creatives. So you have within this 150, you have data analysts as well who look at that sort of data. No, so the data Allen's sit elsewhere, etc. So that comes into us via the planets,

Robert Berkeley 22:32
or do you do have production there as well, I mean, post production, and

Justin Bairamian 22:34
I mean, post production. And so So we have a we have a bunch of edit suites, you're sitting in one of them. So this is one of the audio suites, but we've got some edit suites, where all the content based stuff we edit and finish off and play out.

Robert Berkeley 22:46
And that's that's not just video, but that's audio. That's digital?. Yep, print?. Yep,

Justin Bairamian 22:50
Yep, we do most print in house, we're doing more and more prints actually. And when we're thinking about what the right solution for that is, but at the moment, we do it in house. And then we have a bunch of producers, we produce quite a lot in house, we have some In House in house directors, and then we want to work with the best directors in town. So in those instances, we're worked with commercial production companies, and we've just done a thing with Megaforce, who lost at the Nike ad, you know, and I think being able to reach out and work with talent, I that is part of what you want to do is as an agency, so we're in that game as well. Fantastic. So you get to you get basically to fish in this fantastic pond of talent. Yeah.

Robert Berkeley 23:28
Do you think that, you know, we talked about the pendulum earlier on, and it swung, and it was in house, and then it became out of house red Bay, and it's kind of back in house 10 years later, or so? Where are we in the next five or 10 years? Do you think?

Justin Bairamian 23:41
So so I think, you know, fortunately, it's been by focusing on the work, we've done enough good work for people both in the industry and inside the BBC to say we've got something pretty good here. We need to nurture it. I think we need to keep nurturing it. And we need to keep being restless and ambitious. We had a very when we got together when Aiden and Ron joined, we had a session. So just understanding why we were all here. And what we're hoping to do. And out of that came what was quite a trite vision, you could argue but as retirement remained our sort of Northstar, which is to create the world's best marketing for the world's best media organisation. And for the bits between the programmes if you want to put a line out to be as good as the program's either side, and that remains our ambition. And it's and I think the thing that keeps it keeps that vision alive is the BBC needs that, you know, like a lot of companies out there, you know, anyone under 35 is behaving very differently from you know, my generation, you’re just over 35, I’m just just over 35. And so remaining relevant to that generation such that they think the licence fee is good value,

Robert Berkeley 24:46
but I was watching my 12 year old son's reaction to your new idents which have just just started rolling now that leaves you to one Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was the fluffy one we saw. Yeah, last night or the night before, and he was very taken by her. Oh, good. I was looking at it thinking is that, like, most complicated cutter I've ever seen in my life? Because it's masked, isn't it? I think yeah, it's it's sort of opens out. So yeah,

Justin Bairamian 25:08
So yeah, so remaining relevant to your son and my children is is a real challenge. They've got so much more choice. Netflix is a powerhouse, brand. We're up against those big claim, you have you have an astonishing packed catalogue of content, you'd still draw the talent. And you will do for, you know, the foreseeable future as as far as I can see, yes, but we're an industry going through massive disruption. And I think if we think we'll be fine, because we've always been fine, we really won't be. And so there's there is a burning platform now, I think for and the same will be happening in the states to have been around for years. And I've got a legacy of great content and all the rest of it.

Robert Berkeley 25:49
Yes, I mean, I have some who are clients actually, and what my observation is not all of them plants. But what my observation is that they're not moving that quickly off the burning platform. And there's still a kind of kinkajou Yeah,

Justin Bairamian 26:04
well, it's hard because you're, you're, you know, someone like Netflix, they can focus entirely on their new business model, we've got an old business model, we need to keep going with channels and older audiences who love

Robert Berkeley 26:15
you don't rely on advertising. That's the one thing you have different from everybody else, apart from obviously, the streamers, you know, where there's a fee, but all the other commercial channels, certainly in the United States have this advertising dependency.

Justin Bairamian 26:28
And we're privileged in that. Yeah, absolutely. we're privileged, but we need we need to make sure we make the most of that privilege

Robert Berkeley 26:34
when you can't inspect that, that the current funding will last forever. Of course, it's we can't expect

Justin Bairamian 26:38
we can't expect it to last forever. Clearly, universal licence fee has made the BBC what it is. And so I think moving away from that you do slightly at your peril, or you do it very cautiously, because I think the dynamic of being paid for by everyone is what keeps the BBC innovating, doing new things for different audiences, keeping in touch with what's going on in the world. That that is what it also means that you do natural history in the way that we've always done it, because that was about taking quite a specialist area to the mainstream. And that's been the BBC at its best for nearly 100 years. Yes, absolutely. We need to make sure that we we retain the right and the privilege of doing that for the next 100 years. And that's a hell of a task and needs marketing, you know, going back to the role of marketing in the organisation, and therefore our role, it needs marketing, and it needs marketing, creativity and smartness in a way that it never has. Yeah, we're still in a really strong position. And there's no need to panic. But we need to make some changes to keep moving, keep moving. And in the same way we invested in news online when it was wasn't fashionable to do it. We had to take money away from something else to do that. And we launched AI players and on demand or catch up service before anyone else. Absolutely, yeah, we need to innovate in the same way now. And it's, it's an exciting time to be in this industry. I think it's an exciting time to be doing what we do here. Because the nature of it and the shape of it is going to have to change a lot over the next five years. And you can play a part in that and we can play a part of that. So So when you're not doing this, what are you doing?

Robert Berkeley 28:09
So So when you're not doing this, what are you doing? Are you your big reader or your champion? gardener or kite fly? What's your so Justin do Oh, and he says I'm winding

Justin Bairamian 28:16
so I love the media, you know, so actually, fairly?

Robert Berkeley 28:21
shamelessly broadcast live or do you watch?

Justin Bairamian 28:25
I did watch doctor who live last night because I was interested in catching up with the new series, which was a brilliant episode, actually. But I mean, I had four kids to bring up so that kept me busy. And then yeah, I I read on joy culture. I enjoy music usually.

Robert Berkeley 28:40
Okay, what's your what's your music? Bob

Justin Bairamian 28:42
Bob Dylan is probably at the heart of young football.

I know. People say that, but for

some reason, he caught me age 14 and hasn't let me go. So yeah, so I listen to a lot of music

Robert Berkeley 28:52
So yeah, so I listen to a lot of music guitar folk particularly or is it this

Justin Bairamian 28:56
eclectic taste in music but that's a big part of my life

Robert Berkeley 28:59
helps with the creative process. If someone's saying I just need the right tune for this. Yeah, it be and it wasn't you that chose perfect day, was it? No, it wasn't it wasn't that would fall into the right kind of category. Yeah.

Justin Bairamian 29:09
Yeah. And I think, I guess what I can't stay in touch with in my own life keeps me fresh for this job. And you, you do need to stay in touch and you need to understand what younger people are doing. And so I do that.

Robert Berkeley 29:24
I do that. Justin, thank you very much for being on Inside Jobs inside jobs. Pleasure.

Justin Bairamian  29:28
Pleasure. Great. And thank you