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Robert Berkeley 0:01
Hello and welcome to Inside Jobs Inside jobs where we get to meet creative leaders who work directly for brands learn about how they got to where they did and understand what drives them. Inside Jobs Inside jobs is brought to you by IHAF I have a leading professional association for In House Agencies in house agencies and express KCS content production partner to discerning brands and agencies who want digital, video and print marketing assets produced quickly and without fuss. My name is Robert Berkeley barkery. And in this episode, I get to meet Cliff Stevens who took over as head of creative operations at Liberty Mutual in Boston last year. His perspective is interesting as he comes from a rapid fire succession of traditional agencies, both east and west coast cliffs, a man who likes to plan and like me, he sees the value in stupid questions. He's also living proof of the benefit of keeping in touch with your colleagues. Clip Stevens,

Cliff Stevens, welcome to the Inside Jobs inside jobs podcast.

Clifford Stevens 0:54
Thank you, Robert, appreciate you having me.

Robert Berkeley 0:56
It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. It's nice. When these things really happened. We met up in May in New York City, I can't remember what we were talking about. But it came around to the podcast pretty quickly. And you You seemed excited about taking part which is great.

Clifford Stevens 1:08
Yeah, it's a it's true. It's one of the things you know, I was in New York, speaking on a panel about the rise of the In House Agency in house agency and the dynamics with external agencies. And when you, when we grab each other at the end, after it just seemed like there was a natural connection to continue that conversation and to talk about that, since it's a pretty hot topic in the news today, along with marketing worlds and advertising worlds. And what's that nice balance between the two?

Robert Berkeley 1:36
Yeah, that's so I think you're gonna have some particularly interesting perspective. We're gonna go through your career in a bit. But you recently come from the advertising world. And you, Paul volted, over the over the fence into In House Agencies in house agencies. So just just to let us know that, where are you right now, then Cliff?

Clifford Stevens 1:55
Great. Yeah, I have been on the external agency world for most of my career, and most recently, I made the move to Liberty Mutual, to oversee their In House Agency in house agency. So I am the director of creative operations. I've got a team of about 35 people right now that range across there and capabilities to cover the majority of the work that comes from Liberty Mutual from an external consumer facing side, we work with a few partners, external agency partners and partner with them well, but there's been a big push at Liberty Mutual to have the In House Agency in house agency grow, because they see tremendous value on.

Robert Berkeley 2:33
This is, this, it was this an existing In House Agency in house agency or one that you you're setting up at the moment,

Clifford Stevens 2:38
I was fortunate to have a foundation to walk into. So it was an existing In House Agency in house agency. There were varying degrees of creative teams and groups that had been at liberty for the past several years. But they made a really big focus about three years ago, to change a lot of those creative offerings to really focusing on the external consumer side. So it's really been about three years in the making.

Robert Berkeley 3:02
So you say we are fortunate not everybody says that because sometimes people like to start with a clean slate and, and do it completely their way. But it sounds like your, your starting point isn't so bad.,

Clifford Stevens 3:13
you know, that starting point to building something from, you know, two to five people to then scaling it is always challenging. And so I completely respect my predecessors. And in building that, at the same time, they created a nice foundation for us to grow well. And so it's really about amplifying that, and what that next step would look like.

Robert Berkeley 3:33
Yeah, okay, well, we will come to that. So let's go, let's go back into our Wayback Machine, Cliff cliff, and back to the dawn of time. So where where were you from originally?

Clifford Stevens 3:43
So I'm originally from outside Boston. I grew up in Chelmsford, Massachusetts, so apologies that we stole our town from you.

Robert Berkeley 3:50
But my mother lives near Boston in England. He complains about the fact that when she looks things up on the internet, she's told that they're just down the road in places like Cambridge or, you know, Lexington or whatever, say

Clifford Stevens 4:04
or low, right? So my family has always been in the textile business for most of my life. And so I grew up around a family textile business that started back in 1865. Oh, my Goodness. God. And so for me, that seemed like the path that I was going to go towards coming out of college. And when, you know, I was rounding out my opportunities and talking about it with my father, who was the CEO and president at thatthe time. He wouldn't give me a job. And so I

Robert Berkeley 4:33
so I Wwhy why wouldn't I mean, I'm kind of guessing that the textile industry was not at its strongest point then. But why wouldn't he give you a job?

Clifford Stevens 4:41
You are correct. It was it was two reasons. One was he wanted to see where the world was going from a global markets perspective, and where American manufacturing's role was going to be with that, and also being a driver of it. And the second one was, he's like, I need you to have outside experience. And I need you to bring something unique to this table. Not something thing that I've done previously. So, go do what you would want to do what makes you happy what what you're passionate about. And let's talk in a few years and see where we're at. And, and at that point, and I remember that talk very vividly. I was I was walking around the campus of Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut. And I started on my advertising and marketing career starting with small little internships, you know, local base places in East Hartford.

Robert Berkeley 5:24
So some something drew you to marketing or advertising at that point already, right?

Clifford Stevens 5:28
Yeah, I had actually, there's a there's a great master class that was offered at Trinity that was run by a guy named Bruce McDonald, who was an old y&r veteran who came into classes at the at the college and I would sit with him after each class and talk to him about brands and where they fit into the marketplace and how things have changed from jingles and taglines to identity and the impact of that. And I really liked the idea of working in a business that also had a creative side because I had a pretty sort of creative background growing up and theatre and arts and culture and music.

Robert Berkeley 6:03
Are you an actor?

Clifford Stevens 6:05
I was not a good one, but

Robert Berkeley 6:07
I have very few good actors.

Clifford Stevens 6:09
I was a good supporting role. And I'm loud enough in verbose that it was it was a great opportunity for me to be on stage a little easier.

Robert Berkeley 6:18
What was your best part there, Cliff?

Clifford Stevens 6:19
Oh, God, I was mainly known for singing. So I was always Oh, are you still singing? Only to my kids at night and to my wife every now and then.

Robert Berkeley 6:28
Okay, yeah, the novelty wears off Does, it does, my current wife I met and I played guitar, and I thought that would be the most lovely thing to romance her and it did for about a week. It gets tiresome after that.

Clifford Stevens 6:39
I think it was the hook line and sinker. And I don't know if it continued much.

Robert Berkeley 6:45
Anyway, so you're at college, and you turned your back on that on trading the boards and doing interested in marketing to augment the skill set for the family business. What happened?.

Clifford Stevens 6:54
So I got hooked. I started interviewing and networking like crazy. And I had a fortunate college professor and coach at the time, which is coach Paul CNT, who is actually the head of the Trinity men's squash coach who just consistently set me up in New York with interviews and meeting people from the CMO of Planet Fitness to other brands. And I was just getting 10 minutes of time with people. And I really started to realise what they were shaping from a marketing perspective. And then I got my first role shortly after my senior year at jadibooti in New York, and I actually had, you know, met someone at jadibooti while I was teaching tennis that summer and working on a marketing internship at the same time. And after giving this gentleman a good backhand, he said, Send me a resume. And sure enough, within two weeks, I was interviewing at JD Beautty and I landed my role by the end. What did

Robert Berkeley 7:43
What did you have in your resume? At that point, though, you could sing, singing career?,

Clifford Stevens 7:47
I had a liberal arts background and I had had two marketing and three marketing internships while I was in college. I had enough to be dangerous to be interviewed. And then I had, hopefully the personality and the work ethic to justify my assistant account executive role. jadibooti right off the bat.

Robert Berkeley 8:06
So do you remember your first days at JW? t?

Clifford Stevens 8:08
Absolutely. I will never forget those. One of it was actually back in 2003. When there was the classic blackout was the fourth day I started. So New York went completely black. And it was one of those I was finishing my first report for my boss and my computer just went out. And I was you know, so excited because I thought I had done a great job. And I was like what just happened here, and then they evacuated the buildings. But what I remember most about those first few days was some of the people that I've met that have, you know, played a pretty big impact on my career along the way. And one of them was a gentleman named Howard Courtemanche who was the CEO of healthcare activity, which was a major division there. And he said, Oh, what are you working on? So I'm working on a small brand, Listerine pocket pack strips, and that was my first brand that I was working on. And he goes Cliff Kliff. They spend $36 million a year in TV advertising alone. They're far from a small brands. And that stuck with me as sort of what did

Robert Berkeley 9:05
you learn there? What did you learn Cliff? cliff,

Clifford Stevens 9:07
I think I learned the real impact of how much media was being spent against brands. And that was a small breath, mint, or breath strip at the time. And so we thought about that as part of the larger Pfizer offering who spends a billion dollars a year that started to really resonate me with the impact of, you know, where people were spending their time how they were spending it, what we were creating there, and the the advertising and the communications behind it, and the value of that,

Robert Berkeley 9:35
but the responsibility as well. What you had as a as a as a young graduate working there?,

Clifford Stevens 9:41
Very very eye opening, and I loved it. I got a chance to work on my first you know, 15 second TV spot to my first out of homework, two first worlds of digital, which just started to really start to take shape at that time.

Robert Berkeley 9:54
Did you feel you knew what you were doing? Or did you feel that imposter syndrome where you were kind of hoping that no one would find out that you didn't know what you were doing at this point.

Clifford Stevens 10:02
I was pretty transparent about it. I think that was probably my,

Robert Berkeley 10:04
think that was probably my honestly have no idea why I'm here?

Clifford Stevens 10:07
Well, I think it was one of those where I was so eager to learn that I was okay admitting what I didn't know. And I think that's one of the biggest things in this industry now that people still sometimes so sometimes struggle with is that vulnerability. And I was being comfortable, I was comfortable being vulnerable, I was I was comfortable, say, hey, I'd love to learn more about this. And I think at the time, my bosses really rallied around that and felt like they could not only teach me or or mentor me, but then actually take, take it up a notch and give me more work.

Robert Berkeley 10:38
It's funny, one of my first learning experiences at work was when I was about 21, or two, and I got a job with a company that was doing page layout software. But this was before Quark or pagemaker, even but on a Mac, I knew the software, but I had no idea what it was for. And, and I remember asking the manager there, the production manager that this is great, but I hope you don't mind me asking, it's probably a silly question. What the hell do you use this for? And he was so happy to show me and he took me around. And he showed me the whole process of producing a newspaper and I realised then actually, everyone wants to talk about what they know, and what they enjoy. And there's never any harm in asking and, you know, you won't look an idiot, you'll look curious, which is, you know, a fantastic virtue. I think.

Clifford Stevens 11:21
I agree. I think that's one of the things that I would instil in a lot of the people that look up to me these days, too, is, is admit what you don't know. Because what you don't know you might actually end up knowing and, you know, celebrating and figure out where your passions lie and part of your growth so,

Robert Berkeley 11:35
Mmate, what you don't know. Totally agree. And I do that a lot. By the way, Cliff because I know a lot. So you were you worked on Pfizer brands, but you also worked on Domino's, how did you? What did you do for dominance?

Clifford Stevens 11:47
You know, Domino's, was in a price war with a lot of the other pizza based businesses, it was the 555 deal, which was the number one thing but what ultimately happened was that deal, which was a great marketing idea, ultimately, you know, denigrated the brand to being about value and cost as opposed to about quality, cheap pizza, cheap pizza, right? easy, fast. And you and you focus on that. And so that that was a big eye opener that I look back at a timeframe now and it makes me think about how does something like that translate to today? You know, when when you're in a price war, you're in a different environment? What does that look like?

Robert Berkeley 12:24
So I tell you, it's it's a truism that selling on price and never winner, never winner. You never get good quality and you never make any profit. Yeah, it sounds like JW. T was the most formative but the went to draft FCB was that also in New York?

Clifford Stevens 12:38
That was also in New York. That was a short stint that was there for about six months. I was Yeah, jdT have been great. I got a nice you know, as you know, in most of advertising worlds, when you're young, you need to make a few moves to make a few bucks, and also to grow your career. And I got a great opportunity to go work for Tony Scopellitiscope Alito, and Monica Bloombloom while I was there, and they got chance to work with Sandy and Terry who actually own their own small agency now at this point, work on the craft and Gerber businesses and I really liked that CPG space. Ultimately, while I was there, which I really enjoyed it, I got an opportunity to go work at Crispin Porter Bogusky. I had a friend who I'd worked with Previously, on the Domino's account activity, went down to Miami said, Hey, you gotta get down here. We're making some pretty amazing things at the time. And

Robert Berkeley 13:24
what did he want you for? Then? Is your account your account managing at this point?

Clifford Stevens 13:27
Yeah, I was an account supervisor basically at the time and that they call you at a content supervisor when you're at Crispin and I was working on Volkswagen.

Robert Berkeley 13:36
Okay, so you went out west to work at McCann's in San Francisco, then you went back east to Hillshell Holliday as an account manager. Then you went back out to San Francisco to work at Mmcgarrybowen. I think you were with Intel and Clorox with their In House in house with their In House Agencies in house agencies, I think. Anyway, fast forward to now. Why did you decide to go In House in house at Liberty?

Clifford Stevens 13:56
Yeah, I, I did I I've always been kind of a planner and thinking about what's next in my life and career. And I had known from my friends who had who had gone to Crispin to say, look, you'll be there for, you know, six months to a year and a half. And when I thought about that, I said, Okay, well, what might be next after that, and what might add real value to my career and my opportunity. So I thought about going down there for about that timeframe. And then going out.

Robert Berkeley 14:18
and my opportunity. So I thought about going down there for about that timeframe. And then going out. You mentioned you thought they were just quicker slicker and thicker, but you're finding that people you respect to working there there must have helped you make that decision as well.

Clifford Stevens 14:31
Absolutely. I mean, they built a great foundation. And I think they also built a great group of people with I had a director of strategic operations, who was part finance part, our tech stack part thinking about our process, who was there who had had so much rich history, there is a gentleman named Mike LlaBberge. And I met with him and I saw real value and I said, Okay, there's a great group of people here and the biggest impact in my decision making was my boss that I'd be reporting in too and I had the fortunate opportunity to meet with a woman named Jenny LaBelle, who's now my boss who's the VP of brand integrated marketing. And I did my homework on her before I met with her. And I realised that this was someone who had made a pretty big impact at Liberty Mutual from not only a marketing perspective, but an infrastructure, great opportunity for someone I could learn from.

Robert Berkeley 15:19
Sosay, tTakes us to your role than you did briefly summarise at the beginning of this podcast, but remind us then so what's your responsibility? And how's it? What team have you gotten? What do they do?

Clifford Stevens 15:30
Sure. So I am the director of creative operations. We have 35 people, our team extends between a creative department that's got writers and art director partners, we've got a project management, account strategy and production group, that is all under Julie Hager, we've got our studio, which is under Dylan, who oversees graphic designers, email designers, copy editors, and also our video In House in house video editor, animator. And then we've got strategic operations, which is under Mike LlaBberge, who helps us think about our value back to Lliberty. So what is the cost of doing business with us? versus what would it be, you know, versus an external agency? How do we improve our process? How do we think about our ongoing tech stack to create you know, more efficiencies and how we work. to you you

Robert Berkeley 16:18
To you you felt that this role was needed at the time? Or was it an open vacancy anyway?

Clifford Stevens 16:22
Well, it was an open vacancy that they had started as part of the search and you know, but when I was hired my I was actually even in my transition back to the east coast, I was having regular conversations with my boss at the time about the creative director, their role, the type of person that we were looking for. And so I was fortunate enough to listen to my wife, who had said, there's a great guy at Mullen who has done some pretty incredible work, he understands both sort of the traditional in the digital space and, and probably is rooted in the digital world. His his manner and how he conducts himself is sounds like what you guys were looking for. And so there was a great guy that I got to know and his name's Jjohn ReilRreel, who's now our creative director,

Robert Berkeley 17:04
or commercially aware,

Clifford Stevens 17:06
it very rare, I would say he is one and he's also just a very calm demeanour. He understands the dynamics of teams, he understands how to empower people, you know, he's the kind of person that comes around and simplifies it. And so for that was pretty crucial for us to make sure that our process and our approach was easy to build off of

Robert Berkeley 17:25
process and approach is important, but who your customers directly and who are you competing for their attention and business?

Clifford Stevens 17:32
It's a good point. So the way we're structured from an In House in house perspective is our partners at Liberty Mutual, our marketing clients. So across our group, we work directly with teams that are putting out work across all consumer touchpoints. So if we look at our consumer journey, we can align tactics and initiatives against acquiring new customers retaining customers,

Robert Berkeley 17:53
and how many marketers how many marketers are there at Liberty Mutual?.

Clifford Stevens 17:56
So I'd say with under Emily Frank, who's our CMO cmo, she's probably got about 100 120 people within her group. And that extends across her of the consumer facing side, there's other groups at Liberty, that focus on commercial insurance or business insurance. So that is also some work that we've started to pick up into our group as well, just basically, co workers.

Robert Berkeley 18:15
So that's an interesting point about the you're picking up that work, because you do still have an AI is that right?

Clifford Stevens 18:20
We do we work closely with good B Silverstein and partners, and they've been great partners. And it's one of the things I get asked a lot of, well, how does how does that work with them. And I said, it works great. They, they have their scope that that drives a lot of the big broadcast media buys that are out there, because that's what the insurance category is really about. And so for us, it's a it's an exciting time to kind of see the rise of our group and to see some of the work coming from them. And to kind of keep people inspired that way.

Robert Berkeley 18:47
So you're taking the lead from their creative at all times.

Clifford Stevens 18:52
So what we do is there what the work that they're doing when they've got sort of major work that's hitting into the marketplace, we take the lead from them to help figure out how to support right, so if they're working on broadcast, we're trying to shape that idea. And how do we bring that into digital based executions or sponsorship based opportunities or events or internal sometimes as well? So we really try and take the core idea and figure out how

Robert Berkeley 19:15
does that tie into to asset production as well and imaging and video so will they provide those? Or will you take an idea and then develop it yourself and create those assets yourself? It's

Clifford Stevens 19:27
Ah, It's a little bit of both, I would say that we there's usually a core idea that we are augmenting with, hey, there's needs to help round out where this idea can go. And I'd say that's sort of our first phase of working with them, which has been great. Because we really want to make sure that our message in the market is consistent. And that's one of the best things for us is to say, let's not reinvent the wheel or go too far off on a tangent, let's make sure especially with where liberty is as a sort of challenger brand in the marketplace, we need to make sure that message is pretty consistent across all touchpoints. So we really think about partnering with them on shoots does Hey, you know, we realised that the bulk of this work is going to be primarily in the video based space, we want to make sure we're capturing enough assets that we can extend it across that consumer journey.

Robert Berkeley 20:08
journey. So looking to the future, then cliff, you, you probably got another five year plan up your sleeve.

Clifford Stevens 20:15
I do

Robert Berkeley 20:17
that look, what does that look like?

Clifford Stevens 20:18
And I would actually say we do. We do I it's one of those things where we really wanted to think about what our growth opportunity was, how do we consistently create value back to the marketing organisation and the company overall? Right? How do we save dollars in the sense of our cost of doing business? Things like how do we keep our team and talent motivated? How do you recruit talent? We did a an exercise called question thinking, where I took my leadership team that had included john Mike Julian Dylan, and we sat for two days and really just asked ourselves a tonne of questions about what our real opportunity would be, and what our challenges would be year over year, and how would we face those. So a pretty lofty goal, especially when you're thinking about an insurance agency having an In House Agency. in house

Robert Berkeley 21:03
agency say Say that I mean, we have speak for myself, I have a lot of clients, agencies, from insurance companies. And I don't think I think you're understating it. I think that you guys actually are an attractive employee for all sorts of reasons. There's a huge amount of potential, there's a great deal of openness to try new things. Now, which maybe there wasn't 20 years ago, but I'm certainly seeing that the people I work with,

Clifford Stevens 21:27
you're right. I mean, especially in the insurance business, there are brands that are building that built their Asian In House in house capabilities, you know, statefarm has a good 200% shop, nationwide has about 150. People all stay Prudential. So it's it's there, I'd say our biggest opportunities that we want people to feel like that's a true badge of honour, right? Just as if you were going to go work at a Spotify or a Facebook or you know, Amazon's D one. And so for us, we want to say, how do we create that culture? How do we create those opportunities? So this year is really about the that work itself really working? The other side that we're trying to think about is what is our identity look like? Why like is the creative group is a good name. But it's not something that might attract you to a space right off the bat. so that people can say, wow, I want to go work at Liberty. So we're really trying to figure out what that identity looks like name, offering opportunities for people so that when you start to think about your next role, oh, wow, liberties in Boston, I'd love to go take a look at those guys. Like they're actually doing something completely different. So that's, that's the starting place of it all. I'll probably have some more news for you guys. In the coming months on that.

Robert Berkeley 22:33
Well, it took 20 the coming month, you coming to the IHAF conference, I guess, in your town. So yeah, I'll be there.

Clifford Stevens 22:39
I will be there.

Robert Berkeley 22:39
Yes. Okay. Anyone? Is anyone is there? I believe

Clifford Stevens 22:43
it is. It's a great forum. I mean, last year was the first time I had gone to it. It was actually during my first few weeks of being at Liberty, and to see the quality of the work and the stories that people were talking about from, you know, Bank of America to speaking, wasn't she? I believe she did two years ago. And which was, which made sense? And she's built, you know, a group that now competes globally, you know, from a creative standpoint. So, yeah, so,

Robert Berkeley 23:08
yeah, so, so you've Have you found the work life balance, have you? Have you learned what that is yet? No, not,

Clifford Stevens 23:13
I have I.

I do. And I believe that it's all I would say, it's not even just from an agency's perspective as liberties policy, they, they believe in empowering their people they believe in, you know, being able to work from home one day a week, they, they talk about a 37 a half hour workweek, because they realise they're either gonna get good balance from people. And it's not to say that people just put in 37 half hours you get your work done, and when you need to get done, but it also gives you the ability to have that time because when you come back refreshed the next day, you're better. And I think that's one of things that we sometimes lose a little bit in our advertising, marketing space and kind of staying hungry.

Robert Berkeley 23:52
So with that work life balance, then what what happens with your life what's, what's your main preoccupation outside work life,

Clifford Stevens 24:00
right now, trying to get as much golf as I can on the weekends. And when it doesn't impact family time.

Robert Berkeley 24:06
What's the handicap? It's,

Clifford Stevens 24:07
It's, it's slowly going down, it's going to take a few years, I haven't been able to focus on under 100, which is good. But it's it could be improved, or the other side is family. Right? I'm actually now engaged. I think even through the advertising and marketing world, sometimes it's hard to separate, you know, your job from your personal life. And you you think about that a lot, especially when you've got motivations and growth opportunities in front of you. And so now I'm able to really watch my kids grow up.

Robert Berkeley 24:34
How old they are now? They're foreign to so they're at that like, amazing age where they're still a little bit of a handful, but like they, you know, turn key moments at any moment. So it's important, it's absolutely important. So it rejuvenate. So this has been an amazing story of, you know, kind of full on Mad Men style 26 hour a day, agency and then changing gear to lead a very Well known brands In House Agency in house agency, I think Liberty Mutual's advertising, I think it's pretty, pretty famous. So that's a tremendous connection for you there. And you obviously, pay a lot of credit to the people around whom you've worked. The five year plan suggests you're going to be there for at least five years.

Clifford Stevens 25:18
That is the plan. I see it as a two growth opportunity, you can kind of cadence that I think I've always been thinking about what's next. And this is where an opportunity where I'm empowered for that I'm empowered from that from my boss, Gen. Adele, from our CMO cmo, Emily, thank, you know, they've got good, great, true Northstar goals. And I believe in that, so I'm just trying to keep that shit moving forward.

Robert Berkeley 25:41
Well, just reading between the lines on the dates on your timeline, I think you're not yet halfway through your career. So I for one, I'm going to be fascinated to see how this develops. Because you've come a long way quite quickly. And to see where that trajectory takes here will be very interesting. We'll see you at IHAF I have, if someone wants to buy you a drink, they might even get to talk to you. I guess, Cliff.

Clifford Stevens 26:01
That sounds great. I would love that. You come I look forward to seeing you there too.

Robert Berkeley 26:04
Yeah, me too. And if they want to get hold of you, they can't meet you at IHAF I have but perhaps want to get hold of you. Otherwise, how can they do that?

Clifford Stevens 26:11
best bet is to either give me a call or email me I'm at Clifford.stevans@libertymutual.com Clifford dot Stevens at Liberty Mutual calm, or feel free to call my cell phone 617-335-9912. I am always interested in connecting with people, I do it on a pretty regular basis because it helps from idea generations, it helps with that five year plan. And if I can provide value to anyone else in the industry is thinking about it. I I find that incredibly rewarding as well. And I genuinely enjoy the conversation.

Robert Berkeley 26:38
Well, it's evident from the way that you've kept in touch with so many people from your past. You've named check so many people and obviously, you know, tip their hat at what they've contributed to you. So, Cliff, thank you so much for taking part on the Inside Jobs inside jobs podcast. And I really appreciate your time. We hopefully the listeners won't know but we had a few technical difficulties along the way. But we weren't deterred, and we got to the end. So Cliff once again, thank you so much. Thank you, Rob,

Clifford Stevens 27:04
Thank you, Rob, for your time. I appreciate you initiating this. I genuinely enjoyed our conversation. So thank you