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Robert Berkeley  0:07  

Welcome to Inside jobs, the podcast for and about creative leaders. Brought to you by I have the forum for in house agency professionals and express KCS, the production agency who execute agencies creative ideas quickly across all media on brand on time and offshore. This time around, I can't wait to introduce you to IBM, Shani, Sandy. She's a fantastic example of a creative leader who has turned self reinvention into a fine art. And she's a fine artist too. So maybe that's why I've seen Shani speak at a few events around the USA about creative leaders. And she's definitely walked the walk when it comes to building an in house agency. And her time as a freelancer and then onto her meteoric career at s&p, she's proved you don't need a map to find the way Shani, Sandy, who are you.

 

Shani Sandy  0:55  

So I actually am a self described artist at heart. But I also happen to have an exciting corporate career. I started at IBM in November, as a design executive here and I lead a team of designers across our offerings, and we focus on really the user experience, right? What is that optimal experience, it's going to be functional for our clients, but also going to be really satisfying, there's going to have that emotional, compelling reason for them to come back time and time again and user us offering

 

Robert Berkeley  1:32  

so you talk about user experience. This suggests to me that you're in the user experience of people using your software at IBM.

 

Shani Sandy  1:39  

That is correct, but not just software. So our team of designers spans the breadth of our z org. So z is one of the organisations inside of IBM Systems

 

Robert Berkeley  1:53  

that z said in English, right,

 

Shani Sandy  1:54  

that's crushed. Of course, you had to get that in there, right? Yeah, definitely. Of course, we have counterparts all over the world, of course. Yeah. So you he has that often, too. And our team is looking at our offerings, yes, from a hardware point of view, but also software. And we're looking at what that experience is like for our users, whether it's specific to their mainframe, you so oftentimes, when people hear z they associated with mainframe, because that is our stable that is, you know, our our kind of flagship key offering, but we're also building out our capability so that we can be cloud ready and also start to offer AI capabilities on top of that. Okay,

 

Robert Berkeley  2:42  

so this is obviously at IBM, which when you talk about AI at IBM, Watson, yeah,

 

Shani Sandy  2:48  

yes, of course. Of course, that was the, you know, the well known brands. I remember, like, I'm sure many of us still watching Jeopardy and watching Watson on Jeopardy. And, and so yeah, that is definitely a claim that many people can associate with with IBM from from that perspective. Yeah,

 

Robert Berkeley  3:04  

definitely. leaders in the field in that regard. Always have been and great marketing there as well. Yeah, we're coming back. So is your role within marketing?

 

Shani Sandy  3:13  

No, it's actually not, you know, before I joined IBM, I was part of a marketing and branding team. And my roots are very much in that world. But in this team, our focus is different. Our focus is definitely on our products product, or our offerings, as was what we call we call our products, offerings and services. So rather than looking at design as a vehicle for branding, or, you know, product marketing or advertising, we're looking at as as design as a vehicle for those experienced touch points. So user research really deeply understanding our users across personas, of course, their challenges, what their needs are, what they want to progress for, to be able to do. And then looking at those experience, touch points to make sure that we truly are building offerings that meet their needs, and hopefully exceed them, right. And then we also have visual designers who will work on that look that feel that user interface, and then we partner very closely with our front end developers, who then of course, build out what that experience is like that more tangible interface, that more tangible experience that that, you know, the functionality is served through.

 

Robert Berkeley  4:36  

Okay. All right. So there's going to be an interesting angle on this later on. But you you you've had quite a as you say, you you think of yourself, I think as a fine artist. But here you are designing user interface for IBM's market leading products. Let's start where that all came from Shani take us back to where were you born and what was your What was your childhood like? And what was your how how was the world of design affecting you as you grew up,

 

Shani Sandy  5:02  

I reflect on my childhood and I'm so grateful for the upbringing that I had my parents, both of my parents were very supportive in my reign in my adulthood, and it really was, I think, the most indispensable essential part of being able to be where I am today, I had a chance to be pretty much someone that could define their career for themselves. And so from the earliest kind of childhood memories, I'll tell you that I was always surrounded by family, always surrounded by the arts and culture. My rationale even at that early age, was the art history component mixed with the fine arts component could make me a bit of a critic, art historian mixed with practitioner and I thought that I would i'd figure it out, I'd either be a practising artist or art historian. That's that.

 

Robert Berkeley  6:04  

Yeah. So no shortage of sort of self confidence in all of this, by the sound of it? Well, you

 

Shani Sandy  6:08  

know, I, I very much knew, in my kind of deepest mind spaces and thoughts and dreams, that at the root of who I am, is is an artist. So I knew that there was going to be some way that I was going to channel that and have to figure out how to make a living from it.  And And so the funny thing to Robert, is that throughout my college career, I always had a job. You know, I had a job while I was working, you know, as a student, so to speak. And then when I was out of school, in the summers, I always found a way to make a living. And I tried as much as possible to tie that, that living whatever that job would be, to something artistic or something creative.

 

Robert Berkeley  6:56  

Okay, so what sort of jobs Did you have, then? Wow. So

 

Shani Sandy  6:58  

Oh, my gosh, I had a tonne. So one of one of my one of a couple interesting ones. So I was a teaching artist, as I did work study, which here here in the states is basically, you can work while you're going to school. And you're set aside a certain allotment that will fund that work. And so I was a teaching artist at a school in Boston and Dorchester, Boston, and did teaching of not just arts, but also ESL. I also for some time worked at as again, another work study programme at Northeastern University, where I started to do web design. And that actually, was the entry point into the more commercial arts and realising Oh, I can like build this stuff.

 

Robert Berkeley  7:49  

And how much was the web at this point?

 

Shani Sandy  7:51  

Oh, my gosh, so this was in 2000. I want to say this would have been 9999 2000. So you definitely

 

Robert Berkeley  7:59  

had to know your HTML. Oh, yeah.

 

Shani Sandy  8:03  

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There was no other way and and you know, I used it so I you know, again, figuring out okay, how can I be resourceful? How can I make this work for me, I use my opportunity North Eastern, not just to be paid as a work study opportunity, but also of course to learn and get credit for for that. And that came by way of me transferring because I transferred, I was required, one of the requirements at tops was that I had to take a computer science class computer science 1O1 101 to get it

 

Robert Berkeley  8:33  

done. Interesting. I was like, Oh, my God. Did you have a computer up to this point? Did you have a Mac or anything I had,

 

Shani Sandy  8:42  

I had I had no I had I had a played out PC. Like I had something. I can't remember the kind of PC I had. I think I had a PC from my dad's business. and computer science 1O1 101 was a requirement. I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, well, I had done you know, computer courses in high school, but nothing, nothing to details, right, just really basic command line. And so part of this computer science 1O1 101 class was that you had to build a website. And that was my entry point into designing on the web. And to not look back after that. I looked at it two ways I looked at at the at what web design did for me in two ways. One is that it strengthened my skills for doing graphic design, because at that time, graphic design, again, was was on the computer is moving Yeah, very much towards the computer. You're using programmes like illustrator and freehand and I mean, their earliest Photoshop like 2.0 kind of thing. So I looked at it in that way that I was able to tighten and hone my graphic design skills, but also it allowed me to have a presence online. So I I had my first portfolio out up in 1999. I'll never forget, it was shanisandy.com Shani, Sandy calm and it was Copyright 1999 and I had all my artwork, all my fine artwork up on the site. So I use it really as a as a vehicle to the gallery. Exactly, absolutely. Yep. I did a bunch of freelance, mostly with nonprofits and entertainment. And I had a small studio for a while where I did mostly brand identity work, a lot of web design work. And I realised easily

 

Robert Berkeley  10:24  

This is some easily to you as a fine artist, this this graphic design, did this seem like a subset of fine art? Or was absolutely

 

Shani Sandy  10:31  

it, I wouldn't say I didn't find it to be a subset of fine art. But I found it to be another mode of expression. But the difference, of course, is that you're expressing whatever you're expressing on behalf of a client, right? And so, but I but I really enjoyed that, because it gave me the opportunity to number one, still use my visual arts, capability and talent to also make a living. And I thought that that was that was just so valuable, right, that I didn't have to entirely abandon my artistic side to be able to forge a way ahead from from, you know, professional point of view. So graphic design for me, allowed me to have a profession, frankly, that was sustainable. And, and, you know, I got out of school and I had almost $30,000 in student loans, right? So you can't really just just kind of the bohemian lifestyle. Even if that's what you had in your Something must

 

Robert Berkeley  11:40  

have gone right? Because you know, you started SMP in 2004. And so by 2007, you were still a graphic designer, but by 2011, you were creative director. Yeah, so some did it did did something change in your way of viewing how you were going to earn money to do fine art? Or did you did artist change? Or did you just find that you you had skills that you hadn't realised before?

 

Shani Sandy  12:04  

I think it was a mixture of those things, Robert, because in 2004, when I went into corporate America, right, I officially became part of the client side world actually started at a startup. So it wasn't even SMP. Then I was at a startup, a financial technology startup. And I was the only designer there amongst a team of folks who did anything but you know, design I, you know, amongst folks who were ex bankers, right? What that allowed me to do was to be my own boss, in some respects, you did everything like yeah,

 

Robert Berkeley  12:41  

you were a very big wheel in every small machine.

 

Shani Sandy  12:45  

And yeah, and that's, and that's kind of the nature of startups, it's the nature of being the only one. And so that exposed me to so many opportunities from different types of mediums, to projects to clients. And what I realised is actually I enjoy doing this, I can make a career for myself in this, but I still really wanted to do my fine art work. So throughout my career, I've always maintained clients that aren't in my my kind of corporate day to day that are, you know, maybe they're, they're not in the nonprofit space, or it's more closely associated to work that says, dabble in more of the fine arts enhance hand hand, made, mediums. But I realised that there was a lot of opportunity, frankly, if I were to continue in that career path from a design perspective. And so, to your point, what I what I did is I just gained a bunch of skills, tried a tonne of different types of programmes and mediums and projects, and realise that I wanted to be a creative director, because I wanted to be able to do what I was doing on a larger scale and still work with a team of designers. Like I I love working with designers. And so I knew that if I was going to have that be the next stage in my career, creative direction would be what I needed to do.

 

Robert Berkeley  14:14  

Did you have any examples to follow? Or were you were you ploughing your own Pharaoh and seeing where it took you?

 

Shani Sandy  14:18  

Yeah, this is one of those things where I when I reflect back, I wish I had done a better job of seeking out really, it's true of seeking out of mentors, because I was I was really on my own for quite some time, at least in the early part of my career from a design professional standpoint, meaning, you know, I knew I knew artists, I knew kind of creative types, but I didn't really know any kind of corporate creatives and the ones that I did know were in advertising and, you know, they were super senior, and I just felt like that that wasn't I couldn't connect with them. Um, So when I reflect back, I think I wish I took a better advantage or sought out mentors, but I forged alone and they weren't, there really wasn't anyone that I could relate to, at least in my immediate circle of, of colleagues. But there was. So what ended up happening, what ended up allowing me to carve an even greater path for myself, particularly at s&p was that there was a head of branding there. And she really became a mentor for me and someone that symbolised Oh, there's a possibility to be a creative professional inside of a corporation. Her name is Sherry Stein. And, you know, I really am am so appreciative of having had that relationship with her because she taught me a lot not just about branding, and the corporate environment and how to navigate that space, but that there was opportunity to carve out those types of fairly unique roles in places that you typically wouldn't find them.

 

Robert Berkeley  16:10  

Right. So So you did social. So Sherry Stein was definitely there to, to help guide you as well. But beyond that, you were you were looking for looking? We're not looking for mentors, I guess, but feeling that mentors were out of reach or not, or not not relevant.

 

Shani Sandy  16:25  

It was, you know, I think I wasn't able to find a mentor that was doing what I was doing. Right. Hey, thank

 

Robert Berkeley  16:31  

Hey, thank you. We're doing something unique. But I know you knew it wasn't unique. You just didn't know where else to find people.

 

Shani Sandy  16:35  

I knew it was unique, because there weren't many people like myself, right? Even at that time, you know, now in house so called in house, which I don't like that term, but that's another conversation. But it's so cool. is is is is a buzz now, right there is the in house has gained respect and, and there's value associated with in house, there's a need for it, right? IBM has actually grown this huge capability in house of designers. And so now today, we get it, we're still we're still needing to change culture a bit in organisations, but for the most part, corporations are getting it. But then that was that was a very unfamiliar function to have creative being inside of a corporation agency level, they got it, I had done that. And that that was that's a different grind. Um, so I knew it was definitely unique. And I, but I also really enjoyed being like an intrapreneur. That's, that's ultimately what it allowed me to feel like, I could still be a leader and manifest enough of my own point of view, while also recognising what the business needs.

 

Robert Berkeley  17:52  

Yeah. Okay. So just going back to that in house, yeah. agency term. I mean, you hear other eight other terms banded around, like I was, like, brand agency, for example. Yeah. But if you got a preferred preferred designation for differentiating an in house agency to a traditional agency, you know,

 

Shani Sandy  18:07  

you know, I don't because I think we're where we, it's, it's, it's the work we do, it's a function of what we do. I, you know, I for a long time, use the term and every now and then I still do it, because it's easy for folks to get, but there's something about in house that becomes the dichotomy of being in house versus out house.

 

Robert Berkeley  18:30  

can also have other kind of house. Yeah.

 

Shani Sandy  18:34  

But you know, it's it's the US them, it's like the agency versus the in house folks. And, and I just think it's, it's it's divisive, unnecessary for art for for our art, our discipline, and particularly our industry. So to me, we're, we're creative professionals, and some of us work on the brand side with within within corporations and some of us work alongside of corporations or, you know, in partnership from from outside of the company. But, you know, it's it's just the the dichotomy that it sets up that I think, is more of a dividing a framing.

 

Robert Berkeley  19:11  

Although everyone I talked to says there's a place for both in every organisation Absolutely. Yeah, questions. Questions are then asked about, Well, where's your skill set? Where do you want to have input and and where do you Where do you not want to have input and where's a good place to plug in an external agency? So manage your manage your agency partners carefully and make sure they augment what you're doing? Absolutely. So anyway, so you then from s&p, though, you're running it, you basically created an in house agency for Standard and Poor's by the sound of it. And that come not so long ago, you, you left and you went to IBM. So I'd love to learn a little bit about what you felt you'd created and what you felt you were coming to at IBM.

 

Shani Sandy  19:55  

Yeah. You know, part of my reflection has been around what I was able to build at s&p Global. And a significant part of that was building the brand SMP global, which was launched in 2016. Alongside Of course, my team and my colleagues, it was absolutely a team effort. But it was one of those points in time when I think so many things came together, you know, my desire to be an Executive Creative Director came to fruition, my desire to build out a team, from the ground up, was realised, my my, my wants to see design be part of a corporate function that happened. So a number of things were manifesting themselves and

 

Robert Berkeley  20:51  

things you were doing for the first time as well, right? I mean, you know, the way in which you build a team, and I'd love to hear a little bit about what that team looked like, but the way in which you, you manage the expectations, I presume, from marketing, whether your client, yes, so how you managed all that? I mean, you were drawing from all these experiences you've had before, but you've never actually built one before. So I'm really curious about, you know, how you did it Really? So yeah, yeah. Talk us through that a little bit.

 

Shani Sandy  21:17  

Sure. It was it was? Well, it was the evolution, Robert, because prior to building the creative team for s&p Global, I did have two other teams that had built but they weren't a smaller scale, right. They were, they were teams that were the largest was about six or so people. And it was it was supporting a division. Whereas at the s&p global level, we were reporting to corporate. So we are going across the corporation, and doing work for all of the divisions inside of s&p Global. So that is definitely a different scope, more pressure, more eyes on you, and a different type of opportunity to bring specifically creative work to the forefront. But you also have to realise the maturity level of your organisation. And that's something that I learned in the process, right. And so what what I realised is as much as our business needed creative professionals, whether it be to express this brand new, exciting brand that we had just built, or to extend work that we had been doing prior to that and kind of, you know, re surfacing it through this new lens of s&p Global. As much as we needed, that we still also needed the ecosystem to be able to nurture that, and building the team prove that there was still infrastructure in that ecosystem work that still needed to happen. So I was very fortunate in terms of being able to have a number of talented folks come on board and join our team. And we ended up building out the team in two locations, actually three locations, and really started to lay the foundation for a creative team. We had a mix of art directors, graphic designers, and project managers and the project managers interface with marketing. Absolutely.

 

Robert Berkeley  23:23  

So the account managers, project managers,

 

Shani Sandy  23:25  

exactly, exactly that the goal was to really transition our project managers into more of client relationship roles. But also something that we realised is that we needed more support that we had a tonne of projects coming in. And that in the projects often time times were quick turns, and heavily production oriented. And I really wanted the team to be oxy able to get to the more conceptual strategic work because I knew number one, the business needed to be able to express itself from that high level conceptual point of view, right to have messages that carried weight that resonated. And that that's what, like folks who really enjoy their creative work, love to do,

 

Robert Berkeley  24:15  

yeah, absolutely. They don't want to I mean, that that's exactly my place in this business is Yeah, our clients in house agencies and agencies create and let us handle the production aspect cuz that's not that's rarely want to do. And that's not what they necessarily do very efficiently. Right. So what did you end up with them before you left? Yeah, what is the size? You've got three locations, how many people?

 

Shani Sandy  24:37  

So you know, today it probably looks different. Yeah, but at that time, we had folks in New York City, of course on New York City Office in Washington, DC and then in London, and again, a mix of project management, art directors, creative director, well, one creative director and then designers and now I you know, of course has transformed since I've left and joined joined IBM.

 

Robert Berkeley  25:04  

Right. So that brings us up to where you are IBM, but you Yeah, so you're not building an in house agency by the sound of it at IBM?

 

Shani Sandy  25:10  

Well, no, I think our approach here is a bit different because of the way design was born basically, at IBM, you know, IBM always had a design history actually. Yes. Yeah. Right. And so I think when I think about where we are today, I think it was just really a re reinvigoration of that history and and manifesting it to a real, impactful capacity. So our teams from a design perspective, are embedded in our business. So you're not doing chargebacks, you're not considered an in house team. You're exactly. So you're working alongside your counterparts in the offering space, right. So people typically think that there's like product management, and your counterparts in the engineering space. And the idea is that you're meant to be part of that collective part of that peer group, not a kind of offshoot or outside.

 

Robert Berkeley  26:13  

But that means from your point of view, the challenge is to have a consistent design language and a consistent creative strategy, presumably, across all sorts of Yeah, types of product offering, right. And, of course, across all types of geography, because you told me you massively spread out around the globe with these embedded Yeah, individuals

 

Shani Sandy  26:34  

in terms of our team, we are at actually 77 designers now. And the team sits across a number of different sites. So we have folks here stateside in the UK, in Germany, in Beijing. And you know, so kind of to go back to your point around kind of continuity, whether it's from a design language point of view, or just from a cultural point of view. That's one of the goals that I've talked to the team a lot about, and that we want to make sure we manifest is how do we, regardless of the discipline, right, so regardless of you being let's say, a user researcher, or a visual designer, or a front end developer, or because you may sit in the UK versus the states, how do we make sure that we are nurturing a community, a design community that has a shared vision, and a shared culture? And for me, that's foundational,

 

Robert Berkeley  27:34  

right? Yeah, retargeting now I'm going to ask you directly, how do you

 

Shani Sandy  27:39  

it's not a one and done. It's, it's, it's continuous? Yeah, it's a process. It's a process. You know, I want to make sure that the team also is part of that, if they're creating that community, of course, they're going to be certain things that I will put into place as the leader of our team representing our team. But what I'm going to do is always going to be in the best interest of the team. So sure, we'll have kind of the traditional things like community meetings and make sure we have sharing around what we're doing as a collective and are clear on the business strategy. But you know, what, what is our team want to hear? How do we want to connect as designers as as colleagues?

 

Robert Berkeley  28:27  

Anyway, so so we're up to the present day in IBM? I guess you're racking up a lot of air miles or are you leveraging the power of video conferencing these days?

 

Shani Sandy  28:34  

Yeah, a bit of both a bit about I still have some trips to get to I have told my team members in Beijing and and forget about you guys, I'm coming out today, I gotta get to that site. We have we have team members, as you know, and your site in the UK that I have had to get to. And then our Toronto,

 

Robert Berkeley  28:52  

when you get there, it's just kind of have dinner in a shake hands. And you're all doing very well. Goodbye. Is it back to the lounge? This this this you've got presumably structured staff you're trying to do when you get there to this common name, this collective creative strategy and so on. Right?

 

Shani Sandy  29:08  

Absolutely. I mean, my number one goal with these visits is first meeting the team getting to know people on an individual face to face level, virtual works for certain things. And I think it can be a compliment. I think it can be a resource on its own. But when you're in the early days of evolving your team, and you want to be able to accelerate that nothing can replace face to face. I think you and I talked about this actually

 

Robert Berkeley  29:36  

we did. We did it right. It was on the the podcast from the Chicago I have great leadership summit. Yeah,

 

Shani Sandy  29:42  

yeah, yeah, there's a sensibility that happens. That's heightened. I mean, even when I go into our studio, and I have the chance to just kind of walk through or have meetings. After I leave, I'm energised. It's just It's just that sensibility that you get when you're with people. That is important. Specially like I said, in the in the earlier days of building the team that we have, and we're continually bringing on new designers, so it makes it even more important that I have the chance to meet with folks face to face.

 

Robert Berkeley  30:11  

Well, so obviously, if people hear that Chinese flying in, they don't all talk quaking in their boots and go, Oh, god, what have we done wrong? This is, this is not necessarily the case, folks. So certainly, yeah, that's really bad news. So you've clearly got a big task ahead. Some people would envy you, some people wouldn't. But it's, it's definitely a big task, and and an exciting one. And what's really interesting here is the number of times that quite honestly, you've reinvented yourself, but but you seem to remain true to your core and the fine art doesn't seem to go away. Right. But you found different ways to earn a living that have have enabled you to draw upon that and satisfying and work that you can you can enjoy, right?

 

Shani Sandy  30:52  

Absolutely. Absolutely. I now I talk about, you know, I'm not necessarily a practice lead or a practitioner, I'm doing the practice of culture, right, being a people leader, still dabble in practice, will never leave that alone. But it's about now, not just focusing on craft, but you know, crafting culture and building communities. Because I think that impact that we can make on a collective communal level, is is significant and needed in our corporations that are trying to figure out like, how do they differentiate? How do they make what they're offering, actually connect and resonate with real people? How do you do that? You need people who care about doing that. Right? And that's part of what we do as as design practitioners, but also as leaders. Let me

 

Robert Berkeley  31:43  

let me bring it up to the present day then. So when you're sitting on aeroplanes or when you're, are you at home in Brooklyn? Is that where you live still?

 

Shani Sandy  31:49  

So I actually relocated? So you took the city girl out of the city? Yeah. Um, I relocated to a town about two hours from Brooklyn called beacon New York. It's in the Hudson River Valley and our office, our main office, we have a number of them, but our main office for z is in Poughkeepsie. Okay, and so that that gets me a lot closer to to my folks and it helps with you know, just having the opportunity to build and get to know folks being this close. What book have you got in your hand? So I just finished between the World and Me by tanahashi coats and it's, it's, it's just a special read I am it again to the audio and he narrates it, and so that that also adds a lot of richness and personality to to that book. I'm a big I'm a big a blog posts reader. So I read any blog that's interesting to me, you will find me doing that in my downtime.

 

Robert Berkeley  32:48  

Um, can we find you on Twitter? You active on social media at all?

 

Shani Sandy  32:51  

Yeah, yeah, I am sh for and I know it's weird. It's a four instead of an A, but you know, my name was taken. Okay. That's my Twitter handle.

 

Robert Berkeley  33:02  

All right. And if people want to get hold of you, shoni how what's the best way to do it via LinkedIn or?

 

Shani Sandy  33:07  

Yeah, LinkedIn is definitely the best way. You can find me Shani, Sandy, right on LinkedIn. actually found out someone I found two people that had my name recently, which, after all these decades was surprising.

 

Robert Berkeley  33:22  

Okay. But yeah, you can find unique and different ways. Alright, so I want to thank you, Shani, for giving us that insight into your life and your career and wish you luck with with everything IBM has a lot. There's a lot on there. But I also hope to walk into an art gallery and see your egg tempera pictures for sale. Some.

 

Shani Sandy  33:45  

Thank you all. But yeah, there's still more chapters to be written. And I thank you for having me on today. It was great to be able to share just a little bit of my story. And I encourage anyone who's listening to you craft your own path. There is no one way to do anything. And your way is absolutely the way that it's meant to be and crafted crafted for yourself.

 

Robert Berkeley  34:10  

And you've definitely demonstrated that Shani, thank you so much for being with inside jobs. Thank you, Robert. But thanks to Shani for taking part in inside jobs but also to Emily foster of I have and my producer prediction of estiver for making these things happen, and also to the brilliant Priyanka Chopra for handling this fine editing. If you want some Instant Karma, then do please recommend us to a friend or if you get the chance, why not post a comment and review to iTunes. It helps those people like you and me find inside jobs and build our little community. Also remember you can find all the previous episodes listed on inside jobs podcast.org. And there you can also sign up to our exclusive listeners email. Thanks for listening and see you next time.