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Robert Berkeley  0:02  

Hello, and thank you once again for joining me Robert BerkeleyBarclay for yet another Eepisode of Inside Jjobs. The podcast for in house agencies about in house agency leaders brought to you by the in house henhouse agency forum for or IHAFI have in partnership with Express KCS, who helped in him house agencies do far more through outsource production. Now Billbill Cameron from PA pa Cconsulting says at one point in this interview, that for him, it's been a case of learning on the job. Well, if that's the case, then few people have done as much learning as Bill has. He's worked for more companies than I've had hot vegetarian tacos. And I can tell you, that's a lot. The job carousel has slowed down now, though, as he's clearly landed a great role with a fabulous employer. And we're going to hear all about that in the in the interview. We started though, when I asked almost failed what PA pa consulting actually did.

 

Bill Cameron  0:57  

So PA pa consulting to innovation and transformation consultancy. It's roughly about maybe 3200 specialists across various different sectors. We operate in globally across UK, US Europe in the Nordics, my my team sits within corpus as part of marketing and designs today, the global marketing team is probably about 70 people spaced out globally. And my team is 12 people. And we're a mixture of graphic designers, presentation designers, animators, creative directors, art directors, so so we have quite a mix of skill set and the team pacifically, we kind of the design studio, should I say we we do a lot of work for marketing. And they'll go to market teams as well as drive to brand standards. And then the other part of the rule that we do, which is usually a part important regarding sales, is designed for bids and procedures offering. So that those those are probably the two core elements that we do a PA

 

Robert Berkeley  2:07  

a PA part of the interview, here we have it Inside Jobsinside jobs is to learn the background of the people that that are under scrutiny under the spotlight, and it's your turn this time around. So can you tell us a bit about where you come from and how you kind of manoeuvre your way into this role as a as a creative person in your own right. Yeah.

 

Bill Cameron  2:27  

Yeah So I I I guess I come from a creative family. My mom was's very creative in in itself and, and probably picked a lot from her. As you're probably aware. I'm I’m from Ireland, hence my my accent. I I studied graphic design in Athlone, and did my degree there. And then I went up to Dublin, did my masters in professional design,

 

Robert Berkeley  2:53  

graphic design just came naturally as a boy and drawing and illustration and art lessons, boys.

 

Bill Cameron  3:02  

To be honest with you, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I knew I was reasonably good at various creative stuff. You know, I, I didn't know that I was going to be a graphic designer or a photographer or an animator, but I knew along those realms was something I wanted to get into something creative.

 

Robert Berkeley  3:19  

something creative. Yeah. And you started out doing medical illustration, is that right?

 

Bill Cameron  3:25  

Well, yes, you could be could be too. I did work for a medical company as one of my first jobs long, long, long time ago. But yeah, after after after going to uni or to university. I then went and got a job in publications. You know what I had a very good senior designer. This taught me a lot in that job. And I he shortly he left shortly after because he was just contract. And I became a production manager in my early 20s of this newspaper in my my local my local cities. I fn. Yeah, yes. It was the independent group part of IFM, I I I probably wasn't the most creative role in the world. But I learned a lot from a managerial point of view. Or you're just getting stuff done by newspapers,

 

Robert Berkeley  4:16  

by newspapers, or as I started out, newspapers and newspapers are very, very disciplined workflows, and everyone here is rounded up and pointed in the same direction, right?

 

Bill Cameron  4:24  

Yes, it's it’s it’s very fast paced. You know, the adverts don't always come at the time they should. And, you know, editorial can change as a drop of the hat depending on what the news article is. So you know, it was a baptism of fire. Not the most creative thing in the world. I was getting paid pretty well as somebody fresh out of uni, bought my house and all this kind of stuff with it within a year of that job. I moved up to the big focus, I say in Ireland, so moved up to Dublin and I worked for a couple of small Design agencies up, there and they're still trying to find my feet

 

Robert Berkeley  5:04  

to leave the newspaper or did you just know that it might you needed something more creative to

 

Bill Cameron  5:09  

creative? I, I I I left this knowing that I was going to give it a couple of years. And I just needed to build my portfolio as young designers do at that stage. Not sure not sure exactly what I was going to do. But I knew I needed to do something. Otherwise I get pigeonholed. So I worked for a few different design agencies out there did a lot of you know, branding, self government staff property stuff, mostly print based, very little bit of digital back then. And then my partner, my wife, we went over to Toronto, Canada,

 

Robert Berkeley  5:41  

that on the spur of the moment,

 

Bill Cameron  5:42  

he was back when we had the big financial crash. Right. Exactly. So we had the Celtic Tiger going cocoons, so to speak in Ireland, from everything booming. And we took it as an opportunity to try something different. She wanted to go to France. I wanted to go to Australia, we settled on Canada, I think she taught me we're going to Quebec.

 

Bill Cameron  6:11  

And we settled in 22 

 

Robert Berkeley  6:12  

in 22 the relationship survived anyway.

 

Bill Cameron 6:16  

As well as just about very lucky. So yeah, we we we  went to Toronto and worked in property marketing, real estate, homes and condos in Toronto, part of the Yellow Pages group. Again, that was just a one year working visa. I love this love Canada love the people made some unbelievable, amazing friends over there. Such such a great country. And then when we came back, my partner, my wife would she was working in fashion. So she wanted come and go straight to London.

 

Robert Berkeley  6:50  

So why did you come back round? Because her fashion opportunities in fashion weren't there in Toronto?

 

Bill Cameron  6:55  

No, it was just one year was one year visa,

 

Robert Berkeley  6:59  

I see you as a tryout just to see,okay.

 

Bill Cameron  7:00  

okay. It was it was always just something different. And then and then when we came back, you know, the obvious intention was to come over to London, she went over a little bit before me, I followed over a month or two later. And what went start my career again over here, and that bread that brought me to a property marketing company, where I was creative director was there for a few years, again, some really great people. Beautiful first job to have in London, to settle in really, really good. I then went to another small boutique agency in London, what

 

Robert Berkeley  7:35  

What was guiding all this bill? what I mean, you did, there's quite a lot of jobs going on here at this stage. And the one you just mentioned was the was the longest you stayed at. But you were obviously sort of in pursuit of something or what?

 

Bill Cameron 7:48  

Yeah, I'm, I guess, I'm always very hungry, about everything. I always want to improve, and to learn, feel, the more the more people you can be around. And the more experiences you get more types of projects you work on, the better you become, 

 

Robert Berkeley  8:10  

become, would you be going into these places thinking I'll only be here for a year or two? Or will you just kind of get itchy after a period. And now it's time to move on?

 

Bill Cameron 8:18  

Typically approach I have approached, I have approached it from a point of view of I typically say by two years, and then I evaluate the situation, have I completed or delivered everything that I plan to in this company? Have I met the objective set for myself, but also for the employer. And typically, I i've been quite successful for the most part, and I you know, I compress them a little bit earlier. And then it's a case of Okay, you know, is is there something else to get me excited? Is there a new opportunity within the firm? Or is it time to try something a little bit different, or maybe there's no room to progress in that particular company, and I kind of weigh everything up, I have a chat with my my partner. And, you know, I bleep with two feet forward.

 

Robert Berkeley  9:13  

So after that point that you were talking about there, there's a distinct sort of focusing on a particular sort of type of business and type of work because you seem to be then leaving independent creatives and publishers and some of these other companies and focusing a little bit more on service companies, professional services companies identify again, was that a conscious decision to go for that or is that the way it sort of fell? No,

 

Bill Cameron 9:36  

No, who was conscious it was out of curiosity, to be honest with you. I always had an interest in working for a big, you know, big brand, you know, multicountry kind of company. You know, and I had for so long wrestled with do I want to stay 100% creative designer or Do I go into more than management, running a studio site. And, eh, to all those roles, I've even mentioned that I flip flop between the boat, you know, I go in as a designer, but then I kind of lean more towards the management, you know, process, you know, running a studio so diverse, or I would do the opposite, and then lean more towards the other side. And, you know, it wasn't until I went to KPMG. In the UK, where I kind of really felt like this is, this is the type of company, this is the size of company, lots of little companies in one big company. So there's so much opportunity.

 

Robert Berkeley  10:44  

Were you We're getting management experience at this point, or had you already come across that particular repo, I had management

 

Bill Cameron  10:49  

I I I I had management experience, a good bit of it before then. But that was a creative lead overall, obviously, I was able to kind of shape it a little bit, as things went quite well on the design side of it, as well as bringing in new clients, internal clients, to the internal team there. And then I kind of left there, after a couple of years purely because there was no there wasn't room really for me to progress. And it was an opportunity. And it was only a short term contract one year contract with Deloitte, to go in as a design manager for EMEA, within the proceeds Centre of Excellence, so proceed to being bits. And I jumped at it. And that was a that was a rule where I was asked to be designer at the beginning, was

 

Robert Berkeley  11:38  

 Was it also by then, or was it yet to become the green dot agency? No, it

 

Bill Cameron  11:43  

No, it was it was pre that it had it was different team there. So this was within the consulting function. Now, we did have an in house agency at that point as well. But right away, you know, sometimes we might overflow work, but we were a separate function. So you're talking like the biggest, you know, the biggest, most important pursuits multicountry you know, designers, pitch writers, proceed coaches, visual designers, everything, all thrown at thrown at that particular pitch to meet to ensure with the best chance of winning. So that was that was great. I, I you know, I built a team, I had a couple of designers in Casablanca in Morocco. That was very interesting to read, there really looked at some lovely people, again, mostly on the kind of PowerPoint and digital side of it. And then we had a designer in the London office again, on the proposal side of it, and then I was overseeing all of that. And then every maybe a couple of weeks, I was in a different country with an EMEA

 

Bill Cameron  12:51  

contract,

 

Bill Cameron  12:52  

it was a one year it got extended to a second year, which I did. And then towards the end of the third, or towards the end of the second year, my contract hadn't come around yet. And it took a little bit too long, it did get extended for another year. But by that stage, I was already interviewing with other companies. So I say for the last 15 again,

 

Robert Berkeley  13:16  

the last 15 again,okay, I have to say to your to your current employer, that the length of time you spent on your jobs has extended over the years, so it's sure anyway, yeah, key guy key guy.

 

Bill Cameron 13:26  

Yeah. So. So there, I went to AXA investment managers, sort of part of AXA as Global Head of design. Again, really, really interesting role. I had, I don't know, maybe about eight people in Paris being a French company. And then I had about five or six people in the London office. Lots of

 

Robert Berkeley  13:51  

Lots of you should imagine, well,

 

Bill Cameron  13:53  

Well, let's just say I was Platinum very quickly.

 

Robert Berkeley  13:59  

So they're very salubrious offices, as I recall, as well. They're very smart. They're part of Paris and very beautiful offices, as I recall.

 

Bill Cameron 14:05  

Yes, no, no, definitely, indeed. Again, you know, great company. I'm always learning every company I go to I learn, you know, whether I like it or not, it's just, it's just a bit of a baptism of fire. So that was a great rule, great marketing team, great corporate comms team where I sat down and did some amazing work. Little did I know, they went through a big global transformation shortly after joining, where I was made redundant. And after about a year and a half, which was really unusual experience being made redundant myself, but also having the majority of my team to manage through a very difficult part of their career and life. So yeah, it was, it was quite trying. But, you know, I'm a firm believer in What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And again, Those kind of life lessons and how to deal with people, you know, wellness and HR was very important

 

Robert Berkeley  15:09  

You really talk to the whole corporate life, because you had worked for much smaller companies, but you took to the, to the support that you get generally around with, with corporates that allow you to kind of focus on the things you're interested in, things are good in, right? Yeah, I

 

Bill Cameron  15:21  

 I I feel with the small, the smaller design studios. For me, personally, I feel like, you know, yes, there's lots of opportunity to be creative. And maybe the big team have tTo begin, as companies, you know, they have, maybe don't do as much cool stuff, or maybe the budgets are tighter, or whatever it may be. But I find there's so much more opportunity. You know, it can be a little bit slower, in terms of pace, unless there's a big campaign happening. And that's fair. But, you know, there's so much opportunity, we're dealing with some of the smartest individuals you could possibly come across, you know, these people are, you know, the most talented people you can find in their particular sector, or their capability. So, you know, you're constantly learning, you're constantly dealing with these experts that are, you know, able, you know, they're either working with them, and they're not sure exactly what to do from a design point of view, or columns, or marketing or whatever that may be, or bits, and you kind of have to hold her hand and bring them on a journey. Or maybe they're very clear on what they need. And then you're implementing and working and working side by side with the kind of

 

Robert Berkeley  16:32  

Yo yo yo translating for them really write

 

Bill Cameron  16:35  

it to to great as art as long as you're giving them the best possible opportunity to win. And so you're professionalising the client experience. And that can be anything from a standard PowerPoint deck, or to a big campaign, that's going out to a global audience.

 

Robert Berkeley  16:53  

Your job is to is to allow them to perform at their very best 100%.100% And, indeed, that's our internal motive motif as well, that's what we try and do in my company is help our clients perform at their very best. That's, that's kind of what drives us. It's an interesting comparison.

 

Bill Cameron  17:08  

I think that's all you can do, you know, obviously, there's opportunity to show them, you know, things that they may not have heard of, you know, push the envelope, you know, try and be disruptive, especially when it comes to digital, that, you know, people are still we're still playing catch up, you know, you know, even from just globally, in terms of all audiences. It's there's, there's so much, there's so much opportunity, and that's where diversity of skillset and diversity of your team come into play.

 

Robert Berkeley  17:41  

We'll come on to your current team in a while, but you've unashamedly worked your way through a number of employers, you've, you've worked right across the spectrum when it comes to being creative. I think if you've done packaging, it wouldn't surprise me. But I think that has been missed off. Before we come on to PApa What have you learned up to this point when your acts are in terms of what makes for a good creative leader? You know, what's what are they? What do they kind of boil down to? Are there any common threads that you will have picked up at this point that you can apply and are applying now?

 

Bill Cameron  18:12  

I think, be a good listener? I think understands understands understand the understand the individuals within your team, understand the business mission, know what is the goal of the company and align that align your design studio or in house team, to the business ultimate goals be seen as a strategic partner, rather than a reactive designer or design studio. You know, key keys, you know, building trust, building reportrapport, networking, biggest thing you need to do when you go to a new company, where no matter how what level you are, you need to get people to buy into you for first and foremost. If they buy into you, they'll buy into the team.

 

Robert Berkeley  18:58  

Now how do you how do you do i mean COVID not withstanding and working from home, which may who knows maybe behind us by the end of certainly this year, but what what what are the ways in which you do that? Do you have any kind of techniques or approaches that you've you've learned to do to help you network help you get to build those bridges with people because of course, people you essentially their motto is people don't buy from strangers, right? So you're far more likely to get work and get the right kind of working being bringing value to people who you have with whom you have a relationship. But as you've moved so quickly from place to place, you must have some some approaches.

 

Bill Cameron  19:34  

Okay, so obviously, remote is a little bit different, but I'm a firm believer of people by people, it's not necessarily you don't necessarily have to be the the best in the world at something. You just need to be that person that could deliver for that person. So, you know, ultimately, don't be shy. You know, put yourself out there, look at who your key clients or stakeholders are. approach them, you know, let them know You know where you're coming from today to buy into you let them know, after you've committed, you know, you've done maybe an audit of processes, and you know, what works and what doesn't work within the team, let them know that you're going to address it, ask them for advice, you know, don't just go and do something without, without telling anybody or, you know, asking is this what actually they really want. And, you know, a combination of just looking at everything that we're doing, making sure that it's not just a fixed a basic basics, anybody can fix the basics quite quickly, you know, it's a quick win. But you know, what is a short term to medium term to long term, you know, goals that you have, and try and bring them into the journey?

 

Robert Berkeley  20:39  

These are the sorts of skills you hear about with account managers, though, Bill, I think I, yep. NowNo, go. I mean, obviously, that my follow up was and your head of head of design studio, but youryou know, everything you've talked about here has been really about account management, or what I would consider account management, which is, which is, you know, many points of contact, understand the client, make sure you're, you know, you're reaching out to people practically ask for advice, check in with them, and so on. So I'm fine. I'm fascinated by this, you actually seem to straddle those two things?

 

Bill Cameron  21:09  

Yeah. I guess, you know, like I said, early on, I struggled between the career route being, you know, hands on designer, and then a hands off designer, and I like booted them. So I still get in the mix of, you know, big projects, big campaigns, big bids, I want to see them. You know, I like giving my input.

 

Robert Berkeley  21:28  

No. So you have this hybrid? Yeah, while I'm viewing it, they are proposed purporting that you kind of your equal parts, account manager, or account director, however you'd like to look at it, but interfacing and building building your business, effectively building the important significance on the value of your business, through the networking, and then you're also leading the charge when it comes to creativity.

 

Bill Cameron  21:50  

Yeah, I guess, I guess I'm kind of, I guess I'm a little bit greedy. I like all facets of the design, process and governance, and creative, I like, I have an interest in everything, I don't pretend to be an expert. You know, probably my, my greatest skill set is hiring people that are better than me. You know, I

 

Robert Berkeley  22:13  

I point I've never found that difficult myself.

 

Bill Cameron  22:17  

Me too, but I love when, you know, the team creates something amazing, you know, I'm a big, you know, I'm big on with, you know, with the team works together, I'm not as you know, we'll get onto, you know, people working in silos or group group design and stuff like that. But in terms of project management, you know, creative direction, you know, technical approach, you know, creative design, I like all of it, I like different parts of us, depending on on what a particular project is, or what type of client it is probably relatively adaptive, you know, when it comes to that, you know, I make myself what that person needs to be. And I expect the same from the team, you know, the team are able to adapt, you know, whether it's a marketing project, whether it's a strategic bid, or maybe it's something for social, or maybe it's the client story, or something along those kind of events, or an event where, you know, we're flexing to be a, you know, a hybrid event, I love the technology aspect as well, and how that comes into design. And, you know, trying out something new

 

Robert Berkeley  23:26  

for example, I

 

Bill Cameron  23:26  

I guess, I guess, you know, we do we do a lot of, you know, big microsites, you know that trying to find a digital solution, rather than just emailing a PDF, or uploading it technology. Yeah, exactly. And that comes back to our mantra of what pa consulting is an innovation and transformation consultancy. We kind of feel like we, I think I don't see the kind of, you know, we operate in a segment of one, we're not a typical professional, professional services company. We we are very inventors, yes, we've got a lot of scientists that were big, your white lab coats, walk around creating these crazy inventions and old to you know, to improve, improve the world. So, you know, it's, it's, it's a really exciting company that I've ended up landing in. And it's one that I'm really excited about continuing my journey, which is probably the first company I've got really excited about in a long time, especially the team that I have.

 

Robert Berkeley  24:27  

Let's talk a little bit about what you've got there. You mentioned that you're within a marketing department of around 70. So I take it therefore, do you report to the CMO or someone senior marketing? Yeah,

 

Bill Cameron  24:39  

Yeah I report to the chief marketing officer

 

Robert Berkeley  24:42  

on a shared resource across the business so much as a as a division of marketing and within

 

Bill Cameron  24:49  

so somewhat, so we don't sit within marketing. We are marketing and design studio. So I do report to Joe Scarlett He's an amazing boss, and super supportive and everything designs he does, which is really refreshing. Having worked with so many different other companies in the past, especially the big ones, and, you know, we do a lot of marketing stuff,

 

Bill Cameron  25:15  

definitely,

 

Bill Cameron  25:16  

you know, we operate on recovery model, you know, we're not there to make a profit, we're there to, you know, balance the books, you know, add value, you know, work in the most strategic work, you know, as well as, you know, less complex the work if we have time. But yeah, it is a case of, you know, brands brand marketing bids sold work. So we do a lot of salt work to so sold work being designed, PA pa is designed to be sold as a service to a particular client, you know, in the government, or in the private sector, where we will design their visual identity. So you'll

 

Robert Berkeley  25:56  

So you'll be working for third parties as well. Yes, potentially. And I think I did not see that. PA Pa acquired a brand strategy company as well, I think early, early last year, middle last year. Yes. We

 

Bill Cameron  26:09  

Yes. We had two acquisitions. Last year. We had Astro, I think and who are an amazing brand strategy company. We have essentially a four No, we've we've got quite a lot. You know, this is this is where we see groups, particularly within the Americas, you know, we're looking at the criminal crime in terms of a talent, and who's the right fit for us, and they're seeing if we're the right fit for them. You know, and it's very much a partnership.

 

Robert Berkeley  26:41  

So creativity is becoming so much more important all the time. Definitely. But also for that for for your customers as well, which is fascinating. So that that presents new challenges to you as well, when you're dealing with new brands as well. Right? Well,

 

Bill Cameron  26:56  

Well definitely one thing I would say. So, you know, something that we're finding they're usually designed usually was an add on or a salon. For consultancies, you know, they are, we can offer you this as well, you know, every proposition that we're putting out there design is such a stable part of it, you know, it is one of our, you know, core elements of why you want to work with PA pa consultant. So, you know, everything from the non, you know, doing design mean so many things to so many different people, you know, the importance of design is utterly important and strategic for a company like PA pa consulting.

 

Robert Berkeley  27:32  

Absolutely. So how your department itself? I think you said, What's, how many people 12 people? Yeah, so how do you clearly you're expressing the value not only internally, but for pitchers, which is new business acquisition, and then also for external clients as well, you're sold on? How do you monetize that? How do you? How do you literally show the ROI on your department? If you aren't, if you're not billing internally,

 

Bill Cameron  27:55  

there's we do reports, so we don't build we don't we? We do we do build, but we it's a low fee, and that just covers the costs in terms of salaries and whatnot, of people, our team has started to

 

Robert Berkeley  28:08  

drive decisions about recruitment as well, for you and expansion and so on.

 

Bill Cameron  28:12  

Well, yes and no. So again, as I said, you know, our chief marketing officer is really supportive. You know, one of the main things, one of the driving points of coming here, you know, I said, you know, will you back me if we need to make hard decisions. And, you know, she was, she's a lady that doesn't like to go external. You know, she wants to keep, you know, design in house. She knows how great a team we had long before I started, or long before I even knew about PA pa consulting. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's something that is really attractive about somebody having that kind of, you know, knowledge and respect for an in house function. And, you know, there was so much opportunity to build on such a great team already. And so it's opportunity just to build our profile within PA, which maybe was lacking a little bit. So it's it’s it’s something that I feel very strongly about,

 

Robert Berkeley  29:13  

do you feel that you're you're you're kind of on a journey within PA with MPa I mean, obviously, you say you're excited to be there, but it sounds like you feel that there's there's a long way to go with this. There's a lot of gaps in this tank.

 

Bill Cameron  29:23  

I do. We hired. We hired a couple of people last year, we hired a couple of people. This is within the design studio, a couple of people here before when I started there, were obviously waiting till till I started, we're looking to hire another bid designer at the moment. Last year, was a very tough year, but also a very humbling year for personally for everybody as well as a company. But you know, we got to really strongly by people knowing us, you know, by delivering some amazing work, particularly for the UK government's with the ventilator challenge programme, where my team actually designs design All the user guides for ventilators and all the stickers that went on all the ventilator

 

Robert Berkeley  30:05  

to be able to make such a direct impact is rare.

 

Bill Cameron  30:08  

It's very, very unusual. It was, you know, it was a blitz of six weeks, it was at the very, very beginning, we didn't know what was going on. And yeah, you know, everybody back, you know, together, loads of late nights, loads of time dealing with printers, making sure you were getting to the right mo D base was just, it was just phenomenal. But everybody stood up, and you really just got to see what what's inside people. And it wouldn't have been the most creative work in the world, don't get me wrong, but it had to be done and had to be done. And well, and it wasn't done. It couldn't be shipped out in time. So you know, very proud of us. And obviously, you know, he did a lot of stuff with the with, with the ventilator challenge programme as well, in terms of supplying and running, running, running all the supply chain and and that. So yeah, it's, you know, really, really amazing,

 

Robert Berkeley  30:55  

Ffantastic. Well, it sounds like you have a super functional a very integrated team there. But I don't think that's been the case. throughout your career, I think you've seen talent that's been wasted along the way that hasn't been able to to to harness, you know, the good work of their colleagues and so on. Is that right? Yeah, I

 

Bill Cameron  31:12  

Yeah, I think I think it's really important, when you go into any role, just get to know everybody, not just two people that are the top the top of the pile, but also the people that are starting off, often when you can go into a company, you know, especially if you've had people there a long time, you know, they're they're used to doing the same thing, you know, maybe bid in a Ross, whether they're amazing, or there's room for improvement, and you just kind of have to listen and see what they're looking to get out of it. You know, where do they see themselves? You know, they see themselves, you know, doing a particular design piece of work all the time? Or is it a case of they want to learn video or animation, or maybe they want to get into management. And I think, you know, sometimes you have to do self initiated projects, to kind of figure out or for them to figure out what they like what they don't like,

 

Robert Berkeley  32:02  

Wouldif you find that these people's booked idea of their future self doesn't fit with your idea of their future self sometimes

 

Bill Cameron  32:08  

Nnot so much. No, that's an interesting one, I can't say anything stands out to me, I would say there are more they get probably get a little bit more hungerhonker because they're probably getting the attention. But also they're given the opportunity to explore and to engage themselves in different ways that they haven't previously.

 

Robert Berkeley  32:30  

So what's what is the trick with underperforming siloed people where their people are talented, do you think they're just in the wrong place, and one needs to consider where they are in them in the scheme of things.

 

Bill Cameron  32:41  

So I definitely think what you said is a possibility, you know, they can be in the wrong role. And there's opportunity to flex and pivot within the organisation. Or it can be that maybe what they taught they liked isn't actually what they really like, or, you know, depending on where they've come from, they can be used to doing it in a certain way. And they just need to be okay to fail and try something different., Yyou know, you, you learn a lot more from making a mistake, then doing doing the writing constantly. That's that's probably you know, that's probably why I have kind of moved around a bit I like, you know, just seeing, seeing how other people do it. And that and then I take probably little bits of every company I've worked at, and I probably infused them together into some sort of way as ways of working, When you've completed a go to or a new team. And it's not the same as you asked about Is there a blueprint. And notice, there's definitely not a blueprint, it's all learning on the job, it's a case of just seeing what they need filling in the gaps, make sure it's better, and then smash it the following year. That's, that's kind of what I like to do. Or I like I like teams doing. I want people to be enthusiastic and you know, really go Yeah, let's just, you know, let's just get this perfect, and try and do something different. You know, and this is what they asked for. But let's give them two more options. You know, so it's not a case of, okay, we've delivered for that client, I want that client or I'd like take my team one sec identical away and say Do you know what? That designer at designs to you did the most unbelievable designs on you know, and maybe even curse? I quite like it when people curse when they refer to because they're caught off guard means they're passionate. You know, I will check myself just just as I try to use that analogy, but it's, uh, you know, I like people feeling passionate about what they do and, and, again, fortunate enough that, you know, everywhere I've gone I've been surrounded by amazing creative people, whether they're clients stakeholders, or or my team. So it's, it's, it's always refreshing. When you start again because you see you see people do it. approach is different. It may be different from another person. But you know, the ultimate goal of being, you know, an amazing creative piece of work is fundamental to what you're trying to achieve.

 

Robert Berkeley  35:11  

Has, Hhas creativity suffered during lockdown and working from home? And if it hasn't been How have you managed to keep that going?

 

Bill Cameron  35:18  

So I must say, I was a bit hesitant. It'll be, which is odd, because all my teams have been nearly 50% remote. Over the last year, do you mean? Yeah, so you know, Casablanca or France, and, you know, in different companies, so I'm used to dealing with people to teams and Skype and Zzoom and whatever it needs to be. But you know, I was a bit I just started, you know, with with PA, I've been with PA, maybe about 18 months or so. And, you know, I big plans for this year, or last year, should I say? Well, right, less of what's gone fast. Yeah. So last year, I didn't in

 

Robert Berkeley  35:55  

I didn't in a way, it's going very slow. But yeah..., yes.

 

Bill Cameron  35:58  

Yes, yes. indeed. So I had big plans. I was concerned, oh, no, you know, this happened, we will have to reprioritize? Well, I needn't have been worried, the team has been absolutely amazing, it's changed my perception completely. On remote working, I feel like they're, you know, the quality of the work that they're producing is, you know, as good or better. You know, I almost feel like they're communicating as a team better as well, you know,

 

Bill Cameron  36:09  

Well,

 

Bill Cameron  36:10  

I needn't have been worried, the team has been absolutely amazing, it's changed my perception completely. On remote working, I feel like they're, you know, the quality of the work that they're producing is, you know, as good or better. You know, I almost feel like they're communicating as a team better as well, you know,

 

Robert Berkeley  36:31  

you instilling the culture and maintaining the working culture that in terms of working, I mean, within it, when you're a group of people together, you're, you know, culture kind of can evolve, it can be conscious or unconscious, but it cohesive, it cohesive, it appears, I guess, but when you're all disparate, you presumably have to make an effort to keep it going. You do. You do. But it's, it's nice that you

 

Bill Cameron  36:514  

You do. You do. But it's, it's nice that you have to make an effort. So I've got I've got a couple of really good line managers and a great team, you know, we they, we have team weekly meetings, I've regular catch ups with move to the team throughout the week, they have their one to ones as well, you know, when we do have our weekly meetings, we have, you know, show Intel's, you know, some big projects that we're supporting, maybe it's a new tool, we found software wise, that works really, really great. You know, what's the plan moving forward? Any key new processes or briefing or, or whatever else, regarding the studio, to share with the rest of the team, you know, as everybody else, we've all got What's up, you know, that I like to be on a use for making fun of each other, and having a laugh, making fun of me whenever, you know, it is difficult. But one thing I will tell you, we had, we did, we had a virtual Christmas party there. And I I can say, my boss, she won't give out to me. I felt like I was given a poison chalice. At first, I was caught off guard. I didn't know. And I was asked to deliver a virtual Christmas party with two weeks notice. And I to assemble a team from marketing as well as designs to do a great, great bunch of people. And you know, I said let's let's so we created this Christmas, microsite It was really, you know, making fun of Christmas and, you know, Santa animation or Santa person dancing around, you know, real cringe worthy scripts, and, you know, words all over the page trying to be as, over the top Christmas as possible. And it was really, really funny. And then we did a virtual Christmas party and a virtual pub quiz, and actually was pretty good. 

 

Robert Berkeley  38:53

How many people?

 

Bill Cameron  38:54

Oh, 70, 70 people?

 

Robert Berkeley  38:57  

Oh my god, how isWell, marketing department.

 

Bill Cameron  38:59  

Yeah, it was, it was really, really good fun. And, you know, I'm not putting my hand up to do it again. But you know, it was, you know, all they wanted was less, less, make sure it's the best, it's the best personal party deliver go to, and they don't think it's a load of rubbish. And actually, it was great fun. And it was it was really good to bring people together. To come back to your original question. You know, we were a global team, we operate in different time zones. Granted, when I was having my gin and tonic, somebody else was on is still getting up in America. But at the Christmas party put still, you know, everybody was just able to come together on a call and learn a little bit more about each other, see each other's faces, what are they, you know, you know, whether their family, their kids and no inappropriate

 

Robert Berkeley  39:45  

antics with a photocopier, though that's the only No, nothing outside from potentially potentially. Fascinating. So it sounds to me as I've mentioned earlier, you've got it. You do seemed to have a to do list with with PApa and a lot more that you want to do any immediate priorities.

 

Bill Cameron 40:07  

So, this year, I guess we've you know, we've simplified our briefing process improved our What did you do then? workflow? So in terms of a briefing, we use work front to me some offline as well, briefing forums. So just me, you know, analysing how people feel like debriefing forums over the past two years, and what they feel realising Docker to the improvement, definitely, there's always room for improvement. But But looking at that, you know, looking at the rates to be more cost effective against our competitors, especially having worked for a comfortable in the past.

 

Robert Berkeley  40:42  

So when you say competitors, you're talking, you're not talking about other design agencies that the PA might pick, you're talking about other people in the consulting community, correct?

 

Bill Cameron  40:51  

Correct, Yeah, I don't see. I don't our acquisitions that are different design agencies are picked for very different reasons. A lot of them are product design, for starters, they've been knocked, they haven't been brought in to do marketing for a PA, they haven't been brought in, to do PowerPoint, or to, you know, to work on the art to design and put together a bit we may work with, often we work with them in tangent, especially in the Americas. We do a lot of stuff with them. You know, they they understand, they understand piece brand very quickly. You know, they are part of PA, essentially so they're definitely not competition. They have their Secretary had their remit, we have ours. And we're not looking to get on anybody's toes. No,

 

Robert Berkeley  41:41  

Nno, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's, let's just move on. I mean, working from home, obviously, it's very difficult to fix the hours of work but outside the hours of work Bbill, what what, what do you turn to for rest and relaxation? Well,

 

Bill Cameron  41:56  

Well, I wouldn't say rest and relaxation, but I've been renovating my house for most of 2020. But I've got three little dogs who one of them has been very quiet during this chats good. So it's a good

 

Robert Berkeley  42:11  

time. Sure. Yes, very clever dogs.

 

Bill Cameron  42:17  

So, lots of lots of with this pandemic, in particular, lots of forest walks, Park walks, post pandemic plan to gorge myself for music gigs, talking to restaurants, restaurants, gigs, so I am I like I like everything which is kind of unusual. So I go to all sorts of music but you know if you want to think Kingsley killers, Bon Jovi afternoon, tough they have Pink Floyd, all that all that kind of stuff. I just like everything, but I also love to small up and coming gigs. You probably you know, London Brixton Academy, probably

 

Robert Berkeley  42:57  

one of my favourite venues

 

Bill Cameron 42:58  

so lots lots of you know, up and coming artists we can get seen it for about 20 bucks, you know, with the renovations, you know, we wouldn't be wouldn't be leaving the house anyway. or going out as much or going, you know, trying to be cost effective and all this. So we've managed to get a lot done. And I got married last year as well. So it's been a pretty mad is format, whatever you'd like to call it. By the

 

Robert Berkeley  43:23  

 By the end of this year, Bill, you and I will be having going to an Indian restaurant and into the Shepherds Bush Eempire for an evening entertainment. Oh, that sounds good. I like that because it's so much for joining us on Inside Jobsinside jobs. It's been fabulous listening to your very career and and the plans you have at PApa Cconsulting and really glad you're a guest on Inside Jobsinside jobs. Thanks very much. It's been a pleasure. Cheers. good fun. Thanks to Bill Cameron of PApa Cconsulting for telling us his story. By the way, I also learned that PApa stands for Personnel Administration, something you might find handy in a pub quiz sometime. Anyway, thanks to Emily Ffoster of our valued partners IHAFI have and my producer Amy MacNamara for making all of these things happen. Also to print a chapter at Express KCS for handling the podcast editing so eloquently. If you're new to the Inside Jobsinside jobs podcast then a very warm welcome and do take some time to peruse our catalogue of past episodes that inside jobs podcast.org and there you can see our ever growing list of episodes past. In fact, I've been hearing about some clips from these interviews being used to teach people about in house agencies and how they work and how they should work. So you know what you can dive in and learn a lot from within the Inside Jobsinside jobs volts. Anyway, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at inside jobs podcast., org or indeed Find me on LinkedIn. I'll be very happy to hear from you. And any feedback is always Welcome. Ttill next time...