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Robert Berkeley  0:07  

Well, hello, and welcome to the inaugural Inside Jobs podcast with me, Robert Berkeley. This is brought to you with support from IHAF the In House Agency Forum. And this thing, the first of what we hope to be a long running series of podcasts where we dig into the running of in house agencies, and speak to those who know it best. This first edition has a very special guest, Marta siglin, well known as a brand strategy and organisational effectiveness consultant in the in house agency arena, and has a number of prestigious clients and an illustrious career.

Robert Berkeley 0:49
So, you're Marta Stiglin.

Marta Stiglin 0:53
Yeah I am

Robert Berkeley 0:54
Congratulations.

Marta Stiglin 0:56
Thank you, Robert. It's great to be here with you.

Robert Berkeley 0:58
Well, it's a pleasure to have you and looking forward to hearing your thoughts about in house agencies. It's a sector that you're quite well known for.

Marta Stiglin
It is.

Robert Berkeley
And we're going to hopefully find out a little bit about why that's the case and also some of your views on on this fast developing world. But first of all, why are you here? Why do you know about in house agencies? And what right do you have to tell us about this world,

Marta Stiglin 1:27
I grew up on the external agency side. And I started out as a designer, and then moved over to account management when I quickly realised that no one was managing these clients the way that I thought they should be managed, and was fortunate enough to be with an external agency that had really outstanding leadership and had tutelage and mentoring and so they were willing to take a chance on an upstart designer that wanted to jump over to the dark side of account management and they invested a lot in me and I spent a number of years on the external agency side, running account management teams, up to an executive level, until I was I was recruited over to the in house agency side, we'll talk about that in a second.

Robert Berkeley 2:14
Any particular clients that you you worked for that, that stood out as great learning experiences for you at the

Marta Stiglin 2:19
time, when I was working on the Polaroid account, it was about the same time that the patent the Polaroid had on instant film was running out. And Fuji was threatening to take over which eventually they did. So it was a it was a precipitous time for the company, we were working very, very hard on looking for ways to make an old product new again, and spent, you know, extraordinary energy going into the scientific sector and the law enforcement sector and certainly the professional photography sector, to come up with new ways that people could use, really what had been a legacy consumer product, but more on the b2b side, which was a it was a fascinating endeavour for me to come into a product that late in its life stage, and be working on strategies to try to make it new again, with with completely different applications than it was ever intended to.

Robert Berkeley 3:16
I can imagine a lot of pressure at the time. But a good experience for someone in one of their first major roles, I guess, as well,

Marta Stiglin 3:22
great experience, running that team was really was really wonderful. And I had a great account team that that focused on that business, I really enjoyed it a lot. So it was mostly above the line work I presume you were doing with Polaroid. It was a lot of direct marketing, and publications. So at the time, direct marketing and direct mail were the redheaded stepchild to broadcast TV, and general print advertising. And, I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of time in that space early in my career, which helped me learn the importance of measurement and data and analytics. And nobody was really spending a lot of time on that at the time. broadcast in general print and just sort of general awareness advertising was more the the soup of the day, that I think made me a much stronger marketer because it made me understand how the cause and effect of a spend on revenue, and how to measure that and how to analyse that and how to really dive into that as a as part of the business engagement with the client. And now of course, everything's being measured and analysed. And that's the soup of the day. So too, I've learned that very early on in my career, I think was was foundational for that type of work that I went on to do.

Robert Berkeley 4:38
Well not something with that stereotypically comes naturally to someone who started out as a creative either, right?

Marta Stiglin 4:43
No, no, math is not my best subject. In fact, when they went into account management, my mother said, why would you ever leave designed to go into account management, you were never very good at math. It's not accounting, it's account management. And she said still, I think you should go back. So she didn't quite get what account management is. And I think never never did she just sort of, sort of pined for my days of colouring and doing design.

Robert Berkeley 5:12
Well, there's one person who always tells me that mother knows best. And she is indeed my mother. So, so you were you were working as an Account Manager for Polaroid and account that was in undergoing great deal of change and turmoil. But between off the bat at some point you switch to...

Marta Stiglin 5:31
So, was recruited by Bose Corporation, actually to run their direct to consumer business.

Robert Berkeley 5:38
How did that come about? Because you were in the agency side, you weren't in the in the brand side. So were they a client of your firm. So

Marta Stiglin 5:47
they weren't the there was a creative director that went to Bose, who I worked with a number of years ago, at an external agency, and he floated My name out there to them. At the time, Bose was making a very deliberate decision to move all of its business in house. So there was one piece of business that was remaining with an external firm, which was the direct to consumer advertising business. And that client wanted what they were calling a real agency person, to come in and run that business. I went in and met with a number of people and really never considered an internal agency. For me, in house agencies were people that couldn't get a job in an external agency, they, you know, so I was very much an external agency snob. So quite honestly, I didn't really think that they were influencers, in the whole process of developing advertising.

Robert Berkeley 6:41
And without because they weren't or because they were operating behind the scenes, because they could do say things outside meeting rooms that you couldn't.
Marta Stiglin 6:49
You know, again, I don't really even know because my exposure to them was so limited. Which is why when I, went into Bose, when they called me I mean, I knew Bose as a corporation, and as a brand, and I certainly admired the products and gentlemen, that was the creative director there went on and on about how wonderful it was to work there. And so I went in and met with a number of different people, I spent the day there and after meeting them, I was completely humbled, by the level of talent and passion and expertise, not only in the business of advertising, but also in the business of Bose and its legacy brands. So there were those three legs of the table that came together for me in those conversations that really changed my mind and and changed my heart around what the potential have an in house agency was.

Robert Berkeley 7:44
And did you find that they had a lot to learn from an external agency person, particularly an account management and how to interface with the, with the marketers and so on.

Marta Stiglin 7:54
I’ll say the word client, I think was one of the most divisive and polarising of philosophical, you know, pieces that came into play, I came in and would talk about the internal clients as clients. And I was corrected a number of times by my colleagues that you know, they're not clients, their partners or their colleagues and we're not an agency, they're not an account.

Robert Berkeley 8:21
So up until this point, from what I've read, I read in your your Sterling academic work with Harvard from early 2016. You set out the history of the in house agency there and they had up to that point really evolved into a pretty tactical part of a business that was there to dash out efficiently brochure artwork and so on, but really was fairly low down I would guess in the in the visibility of the organisation as a whole and, something seemed to be different at Bose, from what you're telling me is that right? Were they not regarded in that way had more creative responsibility, more strategic responsibility?

Marta Stiglin 9:04
Definitely, Dr. Bose was pivotal in that regard. He felt very strongly that the in house agency needed to understand the business of acoustics and, and audio engineering, and why the products were superior to alternatives from a technology standpoint. And so I took an audio because I took an acoustics class when I when I started there was one of the requirements. There's not many companies that will in there, so there was math in that class and I remember being horrified.

Robert Berkeley 9:45
Once again, it comes back to haunt you.

Marta Stiglin 9:51
But to learn the products and the brand from the inside out was something that I had not experienced before. On the external agency side, you can only get so close to the product and the brand and the culture of the company. And so learning it from the inside out, versus from the outside in, and having the company be as deliberate as it was to ensure that the people that were doing the work driving the work managing the work, what have you, we're able to walk the walk, I think was was the difference maker for me in same level of potential as was in an in house agency.

Robert Berkeley 10:34
You're crediting Dr. Bose himself with that strategy. He's clearly you know, not primarily a market here. But nevertheless felt that it was important that his marketeers understood the product from Bose, where you heard played this cue, you know, this important part, I guess, in professionalising the in house agency, would that be

Marta Stiglin 10:55
fair? No, I mean, I'm, I don't know that I would take credit for that. I always knew at the end of the day, every single day that if, our team did not perform, we can easily be replaced by an outside agency. So I always knew that part of what we were trying to do was to certainly meet our revenue goals and meet our business objectives, but also arrive at a level of satisfaction and sustainability from a relationship standpoint, with our internal clients. And although Bo's did not have an external agency at the time, and as I said, decidedly in sourced all of the work, that doesn't mean that tomorrow someone can't change their mind. And there were, you know, hundreds of agencies that would love to get their hands on both Bose products as an account. So wonderful products, that it's a very cool, sort of just the brand is is at the top of its game. And also, you know, it's not 401k plans, right? So it's it's it's sneakers and headphones, and audio equipment and things that make people move and, and music is, you know, a glorious thing.

Robert Berkeley 12:07
Well, I'm sure Marta would like to go on record as to say that the marketing of 401k plans can be thrilling. And a roller coaster as well.

Marta Stiglin 12:15
That is not to disparage 401k plans,

Robert Berkeley 12:17
not to

Marta Stiglin 12:18
disparage 401k plans, my friends at Fidelity Investments in places like

Robert Berkeley 12:23
there are things that are nice to have, and there are things you need. So this is telling the story of in house agencies through the career of Marta Stiglin, number one consultant to the industry. You You got kicked out of Bose then or what

Marta Stiglin 12:40
did not get kicked out. It was one of the toughest decisions, I think of my career, which was when I decided to leave there and launch my consulting

Robert Berkeley 12:50
practice. And you've done this for a few years. Now I'm out I don't know how long for right

Marta Stiglin 12:54
for this. I'm going on 13 years this year of

Robert Berkeley 12:58
13 years

Marta Stiglin 12:59
consulting in this space. Yes.

Robert Berkeley 13:01
So you must have seen changes in that time. As I said earlier, you know, the in house agencies started out as tactical enterprises you encountered Bo's it was clearly taking a more strategic role. In the 13 years, you've been doing this, and I know that you're a board member of the in house agency forum, which gives you a another view as well.

Marta Stiglin 13:21
You know, when I mentioned the in house agency form, so I'll sort of start there. When I was leaving because, I had given my notice. And you know, I'd given them a couple months notice actually. And at about that time, a group of people in Boston were forming. And we're talking about in-house agencies. They invited me into the conversation and said that they were going to be forming an organisation that was focused on in-house agencies that foray is the network for external agencies. And the AMA is the organisation for in house client side marketers. But in house agencies didn't have a posse. And so let's get together on a regular basis and talk in house agency. And so I was, as I said, I was transitioning out of Bose at the time, I went to the first meeting and said, We know I'm transitioning. So I don't know, do you want to keep me in the group? Because I won't be part of an in house agency. And, and they said no, actually, based on your experience, we'd love to have you.

Robert Berkeley 14:21
So this was the inaugural I have, no doubt, an upstairs room in a bar with smoke filled and

Marta Stiglin 14:29
not at all. It was at the Ritz Carlton in Boston. And of course, yeah,

Robert Berkeley 14:33
sorry.

Marta Stiglin 14:34
Yeah, a very modest little meeting room

Robert Berkeley 14:38
in the Ritz Carlton, okay, I get Yes, it is

Marta Stiglin 14:40
centrally located.

Robert Berkeley 14:42
Of course. Well, you know, there's nowhere else in the middle of Boston, where else would you meet other than the Ritz Carlton. Anyway, it was it was very well having champagne.

Marta Stiglin 14:57
It was a very humble gathering of people who didn't we didn't know each other we you know, there's someone there from Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts, there was someone there from from Putnam Investments there was someone there from TJX. I mean, there were there was someone there from MFS investment management, there was it was really just a small group of people or a dozen or so of us that said, you know, we all are, gosh, were you encounter that I encounter that and we were all running into the same things and, and we decided to meet on a fairly regular basis. And I have was formed.

Robert Berkeley 15:32
So, you so at the time you were becoming consultant you were a founding mother of IHAF
Marta Stiglin 15:37
Right, right founding? Right? I was a founding member?
Robert Berkeley 15:40
Is that right?

Marta Stiglin 15:40
I have exactly

Robert Berkeley 15:41
I remember the I try not to say founding father, but I didn't want to be misogynist. So, Trying to now I've just dug an even deeper hole.

Marta Stiglin 15:48
But so there was a small group of us. And as people heard that we were getting together they wanted to they wanted to join Where are you meeting? When are you meeting and and, you know, fast forward to today, and I have has over 250 member companies and it's a who's who of national advertisers. So that alone speaks to the growth of the in house model is that I have landed on the scene at a time where there was an appetite and a need for this because

Robert Berkeley 16:15
you don't think that they were there any way, these in house agencies, but they just didn't they weren't being counted because they weren't visible.

Marta Stiglin 16:22
It's been a quiet organisational form that is typically done below the line work. And I think when I have was formed, and when this, you know, network formed in in the Boston area and eventually became national, it coincided with a period of time where the economy was doing some some funny things. So if we even look at 2009, my four years into I have since option 2009-2010, when the economy really started to go south. What wound up happening for advertisers? That is they were asked to do more with less. And so how do we do that? How do we take the bag of money that we had last year, which is now 80% of what it was, and spread that across a broader range so that we don't have any slippage in terms of our revenue or, or retention of existing?

Robert Berkeley 17:18
Well, not to mention the growth in potential channels from which was current slide is

Marta Stiglin 17:22
gonna say, and then you add the digital explosion there. And all of a sudden, there's all different ways that we can encounter consumers, whether it's b2b, or b2c. And in house agencies were the ones that were tasked with doing a lot of the above the line work now. And not that they weren't before, but it became just a more popular place to look is as in house teams were doing really strong work. It was like, why are we outsourcing all of this if we can do it faster and cheaper internally. And so that, unfortunately became the the, the mantra was that in house agencies were fast and cheap. And that's why we use them. That was an unfortunate stereotype that I think still plagues the model, quite honestly, because it's not just fast and cheap in house
Robert Berkeley 18:13
they not fast and cheap.

Marta Stiglin 18:15
I think in house agencies are nimble, and provide a lot of value for the investment, I wouldn't say that that equates to fast and cheap, fast and cheap to me communicate something different. There's a quality aspect and element to the work that's done in house that rivals that of external agencies and a lot of...

Robert Berkeley 18:34
them when you say when you talk about this quality, you're not just talking about the kind of functional throughput of deliverables that have come off campaign ideas, you're also talking about the original ideation and development of concepts

Marta Stiglin 18:50
absolutely..

Robert Berkeley 18:51
that is now coming from in house agencies, which I think is a relatively new turn, isn't it? By and large,

Marta Stiglin 18:57
I don't know that it's new. I think it's just more public. I think more people know about it. But I, you know,for for decades, in house agencies have been doing breakthrough work, there's just not been a forum to be able to, promote that or have that be known. I mean, there's not that when in house agencies do something wrong, it's in the pressand when they do something, right. It's a little less than the press, but it's becoming more, it's becoming covered more. And the level of talent that exists in house has changed too. There are a lot of external agency folks who have jumped ship to say I want to focus on one brand, or I want to have relative calm around the products that I'm focusing on. And so it's an attractive model from from a recruitment standpoint as well, if people can get on board with a particular brand or a particular product set or a particular industry and they really want to dive deep into that. into making change or, or figuring out how to connect that product or service or industry to the consumers that are on the better on the outside, you know, it's it's a great place to be.

Robert Berkeley 20:14
So it sounds like going back to the young Marta, who left college and wanted to work in an agency. And you told me that you worked for an independent agency in New England. And you said that you met people from in house agencies, but they didn't say much at the table. If you had your time again, would you find it equally as valid to have started working on an in in an in house agency.

Marta Stiglin 20:40
And I think that there's a lot to be learned on the external agency side that if you can bring that diversity of experience in house, it makes you a stronger in house, in house employee.

Robert Berkeley 20:53
So it sounds to me like for if you're if you're advising people to start out in, in traditional agencies, and then if they want to, they can switch across to an in house agency and probably bring a lot with them when they do that, and also learn a lot when they get there. But it does sound like you feel that there is space for the traditional agency going forward.

Marta Stiglin 21:13
So I think that there is merit in having both internal and external agencies coexist and honestly exist as partners. But there's not conversation going on currently, between the two in the way that I would hope that there will be eventually it still goes through the client is the conduit, and the client is the one that's connecting and bridging the relationship between internal and external agency, how do we assemble the best team? How do we have the best idea come forward? How do we work collaboratively to that end, because if we do, revenue will go up, and there'll be a bigger bag of money next year that we can fight about? Because we can spend more?

Robert Berkeley 21:51
Well, yeah, I've always keep thinking that there is a sort of When Harry Met Sally, question there about can an in house agency work with an external agency for you know, entirely in a mutually beneficial way? You clearly think that that's possible. And I think you've also written about case studies where that sort of fruit and predict Prudential, come to mind.

Marta Stiglin 22:16
It's, you have to set egos aside, though, you have to check your ego at the door, and really focus on what do you bring to the table that you're best at? What do I bring to the table that I'm best at? And how do we how do we connect those pieces to come up with something really special that neither of us could have done alone? So I think there's high potential there,

Robert Berkeley 22:38
businesses always ask themselves, what's core business to us and what's not core business to us, don't they? And the mantra has been for some time now, a couple of decades now that if it's not core, then you outsource it. Clearly, the the job, I suppose of those who define the remit of the in house agency is to understand which part of what the in house agency does his core, which can only come from within, as you said earlier, like a Bose when you were put through an audio course, to learn it from the inside, which would be hard to do in any kind of sustainable way for external so you know, where that line is, that's core business. And and try and optimise what's outside that line by outsourcing? And is Is that a fair summation? Do you think

Marta Stiglin 23:26
I do? I do. And it's finding external partners that compliment and also are willing to acquiesce to what the in house team does, it's, it's the minute you bring someone in from the outside. There's always this question of, are they working with me? Because they truly want a partner? Are they working because they want to take as much of the bestest as they can from me over time. And so that Well,

Robert Berkeley 23:57
that's a trust thing is only learned over time and over working relationship Ranger,

Marta Stiglin 24:03
Right. So that's where the human condition comes in. So it's not what's the you know, what's the magic formula for how to do what works for Prudential and Droga5, as you mentioned Prudential a couple minutes ago, may not work for everybody else that works for them, because they learned how to dance that way. And so their dance partnership, they've worked on together, going to step on each other's toes, and that's okay. You figure that out, and you get better at it over time and you build trust over time.

Robert Berkeley 24:29
Well, I think Marta, that's that's an excellent summation, a very positive summation. And I think it may be time for us to ourselves, dance off now into the into the distance and wrap up the show.

Marta Stiglin 24:42
Thank you.

Robert Berkeley 24:43
Very interesting insights into your career and the in house agency business from your standpoint, but if people want to get hold of you Marta and get in contact with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Marta Stiglin 24:56
Thank you, Robert. I appreciate you asking and so really appreciate participating in the podcast today. This has been a lot of fun...

Robert Berkeley 25:02
I know you like to be at inaugural events. This is another one that you're not quite the Ritz Carlton. But

Marta Stiglin 25:10
I know it's just gonna say I'm just disappointed that we're doing it, you know, with headphones on instead of at the Ritz. I'd really like Well.

Robert Berkeley 25:16
We're in Boston together in November at the IHAF conference. So maybe, maybe we'll just run across the road to the Ritz just for a quick, quick cup of tea.

Marta Stiglin 25:26
So, getting in touch with me is pretty easy. You can find me at stiglin.com, which is my website, or reach me at marta@stiglin.com.

Robert Berkeley 25:37
Thank you very much for your time, Marta, and thanks for being our first guest. And thank you for all of your insights.

Marta Stiglin 25:46
Robert, thank you very much for the invitation to participate. It's been fun.